Anonymous_User Absent Member.
Absent Member.

Re: 64 bit Novell Client for windows???

> During the development of a client for XP, Novell got repeatedly screwed
> by MS changing the network API's and interfaces, causing Novell to have
> to throw out huge amounts of development time and start over again.
> They're not going to go throw the same pointless waste of time again,
> and will wait until the API's and interfaces for Vista are locked down
> before committing development resources to it.
>


Yes, I understand that thinking, and it does make sense, especially
since Microsoft typically messes with the network API's and interfaces
up until (and often after) code 'lock down'.

Heck, it wasn't just for XP, the same approach happened with 2000, and
was really obvious back in the Win95 days when Novell tried to work
*with* Microsoft regarding a client and spent a lot of time in wild
microsoft chases.

I suspect Novell might well doing some internal groundwork based on the
current Vista build, but not be willing to invest major resources until
later in the year.



--
Barry Schnur
Novell Support Connection Volunteer Sysop
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Anonymous_User Absent Member.
Absent Member.

Re: 64 bit Novell Client for windows???

Barry,

Yeah, I remember the Win95 NIOS training we had, when it was finally
possible to run a NetWare Login Script from within Windows. They really
had a time with the Blue Beast in getting the final code in place.

Now that M$ is fighting even harder for their survival (hard as that is
to fathom), they're being an even bigger "bugger" to deal with as far as
sharing anything that would benefit anyone but themselves.


Barry Schnur wrote:
>> During the development of a client for XP, Novell got repeatedly screwed
>> by MS changing the network API's and interfaces, causing Novell to have
>> to throw out huge amounts of development time and start over again.
>> They're not going to go throw the same pointless waste of time again,
>> and will wait until the API's and interfaces for Vista are locked down
>> before committing development resources to it.
>>

>
> Yes, I understand that thinking, and it does make sense, especially
> since Microsoft typically messes with the network API's and interfaces
> up until (and often after) code 'lock down'.
>
> Heck, it wasn't just for XP, the same approach happened with 2000, and
> was really obvious back in the Win95 days when Novell tried to work
> *with* Microsoft regarding a client and spent a lot of time in wild
> microsoft chases.
>
> I suspect Novell might well doing some internal groundwork based on the
> current Vista build, but not be willing to invest major resources until
> later in the year.
>
>
>

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Anonymous_User Absent Member.
Absent Member.

Re: 64 bit Novell Client for windows???

There are also currently even some lawsuits by other vendors such as
Symantec, if recalling correctly, that could seriously impact the effect
in which 3rd party products interact with Vista. So the possibility
that key items will change between now and whenever it actually ships is
definately there.

Additionally, its not like the Novell engineers have not begun working
on the client, they just have not made it PUBLICLY available. To do so
would partially lock them in to a certain extent and people would expect
that method to continue, even when the OS changes and there would be
better ways to implement after those changes. Once Vista goes gold, MS
has similar commitments and Novell can more easily commit.

> During the development of a client for XP, Novell got repeatedly screwed
> by MS changing the network API's and interfaces, causing Novell to have
> to throw out huge amounts of development time and start over again.
> They're not going to go throw the same pointless waste of time again,
> and will wait until the API's and interfaces for Vista are locked down
> before committing development resources to it.
>
>



--
Craig Wilson
Novell Product Support Forum Sysop
Master CNE, MCSE 2003, CCN
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Anonymous_User Absent Member.
Absent Member.

Re: 64 bit Novell Client for windows???

I've tried to get Vista 64 to see my 6.5 SP5 plus post SP5 updates via
CIFS -- no joy here. Then again, Vista 64 is sort of weird regarding
workgroup connectivity -- doesn't see any Win2K or XP workstations in
the local network, but can, if provided the proper information map to a
drive on another workstation.

For that matter, other workstations show the Vista 64 workstation in
the workgroup, but then when I try to proceed from that side I get
Network path not found.

I suspect a piece of this might be me having problems figuring out new
Microsoft metaphors...




--
Barry Schnur
Novell Support Connection Volunteer Sysop
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Anonymous_User Absent Member.
Absent Member.

Re: 64 bit Novell Client for windows???

> During the development of a client for XP, Novell got repeatedly screwed
> by MS changing the network API's and interfaces, causing Novell to have
> to throw out huge amounts of development time and start over again.
> They're not going to go throw the same pointless waste of time again,
> and will wait until the API's and interfaces for Vista are locked down
> before committing development resources to it.


Again, this is the "here and now". XP64, and more importantly, server 2003
x64 have been out for over a year.

If Novell got "screwed" by MS in the past when doing client32 upgrades,
they should consider that part of the cost of doing business. Us paying
customers should not be expected to have to wait over a year (if ever) to
have a client for what should be a supported OS.

Vista does not concern me, as its still a beta OS and I dont have to
justify my stance in not using NFA or CIFS. I just dont have the time to
do it, and some of my servers dont support it (5.1).
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Re: 64 bit Novell Client for windows???

On Wed, 05 Jul 2006 12:09:29 +0000, annie.allen wrote:

> to have a client for what should be a supported OS.
>
> I just dont have the time to
> do it, and some of my servers dont support it (5.1).


Uh... before you start talking about supported OSes, maybe you should make
sure all your OSes are supported. NetWare 5.1 isn't.

Joe
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Re: 64 bit Novell Client for windows???

On Tue, 04 Jul 2006 00:00:05 +0000, Barry Schnur wrote:

> I've tried to get Vista 64 to see my 6.5 SP5 plus post SP5 updates via
> CIFS -- no joy here. Then again, Vista 64 is sort of weird regarding
> workgroup connectivity -- doesn't see any Win2K or XP workstations in
> the local network, but can, if provided the proper information map to a
> drive on another workstation.


FYI, even with Vista32 I haven't been able to connect to my NW65SP5
servers via CIFS. This is even with beta 2. In fact it seems pretty hit
or miss connecting to CIFS/SAMBA from Vista. I can connect to Windows
2000, Windows 2003, and SLES 9. I can't connect to NW65SP5 nor can I
connect to our NetApp device.

Joe
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Anonymous_User Absent Member.
Absent Member.

Re: 64 bit Novell Client for windows???

most of my servers are at 6.5, but even if all of them were, the ammount of
effort required to get NFA/CIFS working on all of them would put this into
the unrealistic category.
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Re: 64 bit Novell Client for windows???

Right -- it is rather strange -- I can share out from the Vista 64 box
in the same network that my 6.5 server is set up for using NFA/CIFS,
and I can access the NFA/CIFS shares readily from W2K or XP systems.

Clearly this is one of those Microsoft 'improvements' they have
implemented.



--
Barry Schnur
Novell Support Connection Volunteer Sysop
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Anonymous_User Absent Member.
Absent Member.

Re: 64 bit Novell Client for windows???

> most of my servers are at 6.5, but even if all of them were, the ammount of
> effort required to get NFA/CIFS working on all of them would put this into
> the unrealistic category.
>

Well, I guess I'd suggest an element of turn about here -- after all
you said:

"If Novell got "screwed" by MS in the past when doing client32
upgrades, they should consider that part of the cost of doing business.
Us paying customers should not be expected to have to wait over a year
(if ever) to have a client for what should be a supported OS."

So configuring NFA/CIFS to support XP64 (which may be out there, but
like WinME doesn't really have a future), might in fact be a cost of
doing business for you. One of those goose/gander things.



--
Barry Schnur
Novell Support Connection Volunteer Sysop
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Re: 64 bit Novell Client for windows???

When bringing new technology into our network, the first thing we do is
try to figure out what we need to do to integrate it into our existing
IT infrastructure. There is a very good and workable solution, but what
you need to do is reconfigure your old software to work with the new
software. This is quite common if not the norm.

It would be great if Novell had a client for every OS out there from the
MACs to OS/2, but Novell has generally only created clients for
mainstream Operating systems, which XP64 is not. Novell has always
created solutions for the other product such as letting the Novell
server emulate a Unix Box, MAC, or Windows Server (Since NW5.x with
inexpensive add-ons).



Barry Schnur wrote:
>> most of my servers are at 6.5, but even if all of them were, the ammount of
>> effort required to get NFA/CIFS working on all of them would put this into
>> the unrealistic category.
>>

> Well, I guess I'd suggest an element of turn about here -- after all
> you said:
>
> "If Novell got "screwed" by MS in the past when doing client32
> upgrades, they should consider that part of the cost of doing business.
> Us paying customers should not be expected to have to wait over a year
> (if ever) to have a client for what should be a supported OS."
>
> So configuring NFA/CIFS to support XP64 (which may be out there, but
> like WinME doesn't really have a future), might in fact be a cost of
> doing business for you. One of those goose/gander things.
>
>
>



--
Craig Wilson
Novell Product Support Forum Sysop
Master CNE, MCSE 2003, CCN
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Anonymous_User Absent Member.
Absent Member.

Re: 64 bit Novell Client for windows???

My guess is a default security setting involving some type of packet
signing.

Barry Schnur wrote:
> Right -- it is rather strange -- I can share out from the Vista 64 box
> in the same network that my 6.5 server is set up for using NFA/CIFS,
> and I can access the NFA/CIFS shares readily from W2K or XP systems.
>
> Clearly this is one of those Microsoft 'improvements' they have
> implemented.



--
Craig Wilson
Novell Product Support Forum Sysop
Master CNE, MCSE 2003, CCN
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Anonymous_User Absent Member.
Absent Member.

Re: 64 bit Novell Client for windows???

On Wed, 05 Jul 2006 19:19:25 +0000, craig wilson wrote:

> It would be great if Novell had a client for every OS out there from the
> MACs to OS/2,


There's no Novell client for OS/2?! Dammit!

Joe
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Anonymous_User Absent Member.
Absent Member.

Re: 64 bit Novell Client for windows???

On Wed, 05 Jul 2006 19:20:38 +0000, craig wilson wrote:

> My guess is a default security setting involving some type of packet
> signing.


Could be. It's tough to tell without diving much further into the problem
than I care. What would be interesting is to see if it also works with
the version of SAMBA in SLES10. Then I'd almost wonder if Novell had a
hand in it...

"Hey Bill, I know we've had our disagreements, but can you give us a hand
and make sure that Vista can't talk to NetWare CIFS but is ok going to
SAMBA on Linux? We really want to convince our NW customers to migrate
away already."

"Sure, guys, why not. Eventually they will all want to move to Windows
anyways."

"Why you little..."

Joe
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Re: 64 bit Novell Client for windows???

Barry Schnur <BSchnur@cox.net> wrote:

> I've tried to get Vista 64 to see my 6.5 SP5 plus post SP5 updates via
> CIFS -- no joy here.


For me Vista x86 & x64 both behaved like XP Professional x64, in that
they were unable to connect to NetWare 6.5 SP5 via CIFS. (When
multiple XP Professional SP2 x86 machines were hitting the same server
via CIFs just fine. All in workgroup mode.)

LAN traces showed that an NTLMv2-specific failure was the first
hurdle, and indeed Vista and XP x64 (and Visa, and 2003 SP1) had a new
default for the "Network security: Lan Manager authentication level"
policy that now requires NTLMv2.

(Specifically the default for 2003 SP1, XP x64 and Vista is "Send
NTLMv2 only". XP Professional SP2 x86 defaulted to "Send LM & NTLM".)

Setting that policy to be something "inbetween" the XP Professional
SP2 x86 default and the new default -- specifically "Send LM & NTLM -
use NTLMv2 session security if negotiated" -- got me part of the way
there. But against NetWare CIFS all of these platforms still failed,
except now the LAN trace showed that the error was during a DCE RPC
bind.

So I went looking to see "do I have Novell's current CIFS updates",
and found the 15MAR2006 n65nss5a.exe which addressed several ambiguous
things like "Fixed CIFS problem when doing START->Run->\\<cifs
server>> on Win2K/XP clients".
http://support.novell.com/cgi-bin/search/searchtid.cgi?/2973412.htm

With this CIFS update applied, now my Vista x86, Vista x64, and XP
Professional x64 all connect successfully to my NetWare 6.5 SP5 CIFS.
But if and only if I've backed off their "Network security: Lan
Manager authentication level" policy from its new default of "Send
NTLMv2 only" to be "Send LM & NTLM - use NTLMv2 session security if
negotiated" or lower. Apparently the NetWare CIFS still doesn't
support NTLMv2 completely/properly.

- - - - - - - - - -

Regarding your Vista x64 seeing other computers in a workgroup where
other computers have no problem seeing the Vista machine, there is a
somewhat obscure "public" versus "private" designation Vista has for
networks it connects to, which affects whether its even permitting
computer discovery

If you right-click the network icon in the system tray and go to the
"Network and Sharing Center", it should show whether it considers the
current network a "(Private network)" or "(Public network)" and the
status of functions such as discovery, password required, etc.

Alan Adams
alancrumbadams@drcrumb.com
(for email, remove the crumbs)
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