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NOVELL 6.5 AND WINDOWS 2003 SERVER PROBLEMS

HI
I am a Novell virgin! I recently installed a Novell 6.5 server alongside
my Windows 2003 server. I am running my databse from the novell server
because it is programed in clipper and seems to run faster in Novell. I
have 30 odd workstaions connected to a Windwos 2003 Domain and we access
the novell server by a mapped drive. All the programs that run against
the Novell server run on either the 2003 server or an xp workstaion. I am
not running any client software on the XP machines.We have installed the
NICI.

The problemS I am getting is - quite a few DOS error 5 (access denied)
and various progs on the w2003 server seem to run slower. It seems to me
that there are locks on the Novell server when more than 1 user or
programS try and access the databases on Novell.Are there file handles in
Novell like there is Windows? I have played around with the number of
permissions in Imanager without success. All users have superviser rights
Do I need to run a client on each workstation? I am running the network
over tcp/ip

any help would be appreciated.

Thanks

JON

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Anonymous_User Absent Member.
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Re: NOVELL 6.5 AND WINDOWS 2003 SERVER PROBLEMS

You bring up lots of things in your message. So let my try to clearly
separate things that are not related so that maybe we can somewhat reduce
the confusion:


First a few general comments which do not deal with your problems but
which I give to avoid confusion on some concepts:

- rights and locking and 2 completely unrelated concepts. You don't solve
locking issues by modifying rights

- iManager is not a tool in which you can assign file system rights. It's
a tool which just allows you to configure things in eDirectory and some
services running on the server. I don't know what you configured in
iManager and I hope you didn't mess up your server configuration too much,
but whatever you did is probably irrelevant to your problems


Now some general considerations on old DOS applications that require (or
prefer) NetWare servers:

When DOS still ruled many years around, NetWare dominated the server
market and so some DOS database applications where made especially NetWare
aware. This is the reason why such applications may still run better
against NetWare servers. Now what makes NetWare suited for these
applications is not just the NetWare server, but above all the Novell
client. E.g. it's only when there is a Novell client installed on the
workstation that the application is able to take advantage of any NetWare
awareness. If you are really running your workstations without a Novell
client, that would mean you would be using the CIFS functionality on
NetWare and this would make the NetWare server behave like a Windows
server. However in such a scenario, your DOS application would have
absolutely no benefit in runnign against a NetWare server as opposed to a
Windows server.
However based on what you are telling, I'm not sure you are really runnign
without a Novell client. Why and were would you get a NICI to install if
it weren't as part of the Novell client?


Now for actually troubleshooting your problem:

As described above, if you need NetWare for your clipper application, then
you certainly need the Novell client. If you haven't already done so, make
sure you install the v4.91SP2 client for Windows which is currently the
best suited client for Windows XP/2003. You can get this client here:
http://download.novell.com/SummaryFree.jsp?buildid=l1o2uFAj23U~
Install the client without NMAS as you will not need the NMAS functionality.
The next thing you should do is disable oplocks on your NetWare server.
Especially "sensitive" database applications don't like oplocks at all. To
do this, include the following 2 lines in your NetWare server's
AUTOEXEC.NCF (near the top):

SET CLIENT FILE CACHING ENABLED=OFF
SET LEVEL 2 OPLOCKS ENABLED=OFF

Then reboot your server.
Now try if your application works.
If it still doesn't work, it is possible that the application depends on
old style locking behaviour which existed on traditional volumes. In this
case, you should make sure you have some free unpartitioned space on your
server disk and create a traditional volume in that space. Use this volume
for your application. Traditional volumes can only be created and Managed
through Novell Remote Manager (e.g. https://serveraddress:8009 )


Finally, why is your Windows 2003 server slow when runnign the clipper
application?

The source of the slowness is running file IO intensive DOS applications
on Windows 2000/XP/2003 machines. Especially Clipper applications uffer
from this very much. As Windows 2000/XP/2003 is not based on DOS, all DOS
calls have to be intercepted and translated to valid Windows calls. This
adds quite some overhead to DOS calls. Now Clipper applications have the
tendency to do astronimic numbers of DOS calls and in the end, your
machine will spend more time just translating those DOS calls then
actually executing your program. I have seen this where people replaced
old Windows 95 machines with new much faster Windows 2000 machines and
suddenly their Clipper applications run far slower in spite of the new
machines being several times faster. Clipper applications simply run very
slow and take much CPU power on Windows 2000/XP/2003
--
Marcel Cox (using XanaNews 1.18.1.3)
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Re: NOVELL 6.5 AND WINDOWS 2003 SERVER PROBLEMS

Thanks for you help.Marcel

we have added the client to a couple of workstations and made the
entries to the autoexec and rebooted the server, seems to have made it
even slower (far slower than when we were running on the win 2003 server)

How do we create a traditional volume?

I really appreciate your help as this is killing us!

Sounds like its a problem running old code ie clipper with new
technology!!


Jon

You bring up lots of things in your message. So let my try to clearly
> separate things that are not related so that maybe we can somewhat

reduce
> the confusion:
>
>
> First a few general comments which do not deal with your problems but
> which I give to avoid confusion on some concepts:
>
> - rights and locking and 2 completely unrelated concepts. You don't

solve
> locking issues by modifying rights
>
> - iManager is not a tool in which you can assign file system rights.

It's
> a tool which just allows you to configure things in eDirectory and some
> services running on the server. I don't know what you configured in
> iManager and I hope you didn't mess up your server configuration too

much,
> but whatever you did is probably irrelevant to your problems
>
>
> Now some general considerations on old DOS applications that require

(or
> prefer) NetWare servers:
>
> When DOS still ruled many years around, NetWare dominated the server
> market and so some DOS database applications where made especially

NetWare
> aware. This is the reason why such applications may still run better
> against NetWare servers. Now what makes NetWare suited for these
> applications is not just the NetWare server, but above all the Novell
> client. E.g. it's only when there is a Novell client installed on the
> workstation that the application is able to take advantage of any

NetWare
> awareness. If you are really running your workstations without a Novell
> client, that would mean you would be using the CIFS functionality on
> NetWare and this would make the NetWare server behave like a Windows
> server. However in such a scenario, your DOS application would have
> absolutely no benefit in runnign against a NetWare server as opposed to

a
> Windows server.
> However based on what you are telling, I'm not sure you are really

runnign
> without a Novell client. Why and were would you get a NICI to install

if
> it weren't as part of the Novell client?
>
>
> Now for actually troubleshooting your problem:
>
> As described above, if you need NetWare for your clipper application,

then
> you certainly need the Novell client. If you haven't already done so,

make
> sure you install the v4.91SP2 client for Windows which is currently the
> best suited client for Windows XP/2003. You can get this client here:
> http://download.novell.com/SummaryFree.jsp?buildid=l1o2uFAj23U~
> Install the client without NMAS as you will not need the NMAS

functionality.
> The next thing you should do is disable oplocks on your NetWare server.
> Especially "sensitive" database applications don't like oplocks at all.

To
> do this, include the following 2 lines in your NetWare server's
> AUTOEXEC.NCF (near the top):
>
> SET CLIENT FILE CACHING ENABLED=OFF
> SET LEVEL 2 OPLOCKS ENABLED=OFF
>
> Then reboot your server.
> Now try if your application works.
> If it still doesn't work, it is possible that the application depends

on
> old style locking behaviour which existed on traditional volumes. In

this
> case, you should make sure you have some free unpartitioned space on

your
> server disk and create a traditional volume in that space. Use this

volume
> for your application. Traditional volumes can only be created and

Managed
> through Novell Remote Manager (e.g. https://serveraddress:8009 )
>
>
> Finally, why is your Windows 2003 server slow when runnign the clipper
> application?
>
> The source of the slowness is running file IO intensive DOS

applications
> on Windows 2000/XP/2003 machines. Especially Clipper applications uffer
> from this very much. As Windows 2000/XP/2003 is not based on DOS, all

DOS
> calls have to be intercepted and translated to valid Windows calls.

This
> adds quite some overhead to DOS calls. Now Clipper applications have

the
> tendency to do astronimic numbers of DOS calls and in the end, your
> machine will spend more time just translating those DOS calls then
> actually executing your program. I have seen this where people replaced
> old Windows 95 machines with new much faster Windows 2000 machines and
> suddenly their Clipper applications run far slower in spite of the new
> machines being several times faster. Clipper applications simply run

very
> slow and take much CPU power on Windows 2000/XP/2003
> --
> Marcel Cox (using XanaNews 1.18.1.3)


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Re: NOVELL 6.5 AND WINDOWS 2003 SERVER PROBLEMS

jon@sqcp.com) wrote:

> seems to have made it
>even slower (far slower than when we were running on the win 2003 server)


Yes. Oplocks are a performance feature and turning them off will slow down
the network access. This is most visible when you have applications that
have a bad file access pattern where they only access the files by using
tiny little bits. This unfortunately often seems to be the case with
Clipper programs.
The idea of turning off oplocks is not to improve performance, but rather
to avoid locking issues when multipel workstations are accessing the same
file at the same time.

>How do we create a traditional volume?


From a worstation, you point your web bwroser to:

http://<serveripaddress>:8009
(where you replace <serveripaddress> with the IP address of your server).

Login as a user who has admionistrator rights to your server.
Then, under the menu heading "Manager Server", select "Partition Disks"

On the right, you now see the complete storage structure of your server.

Now comes the "difficult" part. To be able to proceed, you need free space
on your disk. This is seen as "Unused Partition Space". If you don't have
any free space, you can't create new partition, but you will first have to
wipe out some other partition (and loose all data on it).

If you have free unpartitioned space, just click on the "create" link at
the end of the line and select "Traditional File Sytem" as partition type.
Select the option to "Create a New partition and volume" and give a new
name to your volume.

--
Marcel Cox
http://support.novell.com/forums
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Anonymous_User Absent Member.
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Re: NOVELL 6.5 AND WINDOWS 2003 SERVER PROBLEMS

Hi Marcel

We are currently running an NNS partition, is that default?

Looks like i will have to backup and reformat to a tradional file system
partion. Do you think this will make a difference? to speed, access or
both?

AS I said earlier I really appreciate your time

Jon



> jon@sqcp.com) wrote:
>
> > seems to have made it
> >even slower (far slower than when we were running on the win 2003

server)
>
> Yes. Oplocks are a performance feature and turning them off will slow

down
> the network access. This is most visible when you have applications

that
> have a bad file access pattern where they only access the files by

using
> tiny little bits. This unfortunately often seems to be the case with
> Clipper programs.
> The idea of turning off oplocks is not to improve performance, but

rather
> to avoid locking issues when multipel workstations are accessing the

same
> file at the same time.
>
> >How do we create a traditional volume?

>
> From a worstation, you point your web bwroser to:
>
> http://<serveripaddress>:8009
> (where you replace <serveripaddress> with the IP address of your

server).
>
> Login as a user who has admionistrator rights to your server.
> Then, under the menu heading "Manager Server", select "Partition Disks"
>
> On the right, you now see the complete storage structure of your server.
>
> Now comes the "difficult" part. To be able to proceed, you need free

space
> on your disk. This is seen as "Unused Partition Space". If you don't

have
> any free space, you can't create new partition, but you will first have

to
> wipe out some other partition (and loose all data on it).
>
> If you have free unpartitioned space, just click on the "create" link

at
> the end of the line and select "Traditional File Sytem" as partition

type.
> Select the option to "Create a New partition and volume" and give a new
> name to your volume.
>
> --
> Marcel Cox
> http://support.novell.com/forums


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Re: NOVELL 6.5 AND WINDOWS 2003 SERVER PROBLEMS

jon@sqcp.com wrote:

> Do you think this will make a difference? to speed, access or
>both?


I don't think it will make a difference in speed.
It might make a difference in the locking problems, but this is not sure.
It is just known that some old DOS applications work on traditional
volumes but not on NSS volumes. Whether this is the case for your
application, I don't know.

--
Marcel Cox
http://support.novell.com/forums
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Re: NOVELL 6.5 AND WINDOWS 2003 SERVER PROBLEMS

just out of interest what is the difference between the two volumes? I
sthe NSS more stable?

Thanks

Jon


jon@sqcp.com wrote:
>
> > Do you think this will make a difference? to speed, access or
> >both?

>
> I don't think it will make a difference in speed.
> It might make a difference in the locking problems, but this is not

sure.
> It is just known that some old DOS applications work on traditional
> volumes but not on NSS volumes. Whether this is the case for your
> application, I don't know.
>
> --
> Marcel Cox
> http://support.novell.com/forums


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Re: NOVELL 6.5 AND WINDOWS 2003 SERVER PROBLEMS

jon@sqcp.com wrote:

>just out of interest what is the difference between the two volumes? I
>sthe NSS more stable?


the (now called) TFS file system was introduced with Netware 3. It did
it's job well all the time, but as volumes grew bigger and bigger, TFS ran
into scalibility problems. It couldn't handle files bigger than 4GB, it
could only contain a limited number of files on a volume and if there were
a lot of files on a volume, the mount time would be very slow, and for big
volumes, a huge amount of memory was required just to mount a volume.
To overcome these limitations and to add new features (like journaling),
Novell intruced the new file system NSS with NetWare 5.0. With NetWare
5.x, it still remained an optional file system and TFS remained the
default, but with NetWare 6, the default changed and NSS is now the
default. TFS can be considered the more stable file system as it has been
around much longer and there haven't been any functional changes to it for
many years. As such, the code is much more tried. NSS however continues to
be enahnced the whole time, and this sometimes leads to problems.
Nevertheless, for NetWare 6.5 and above, using TFS is generally not
recommended except if you need it for compatibility reasons for old DOS
programs. In fact, a number of new servers introduced with NetWare 6.5
simply don't work with TFS volumes (like CIFS access for instance).

All in all, you shouldn't use TFS because it might be better, but you
should only use it if you have old DOS applications that don't work in NSS
volumes and that require some old style behaviour that is only seen on TFS
volumes. So only use TFS if it fixes your problems. If it doesn't, better
stck with NSS instead.

--
Marcel Cox (using XanaNews 1.18.1.3)
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Re: NOVELL 6.5 AND WINDOWS 2003 SERVER PROBLEMS

Thanks Marcel...the plot thickens!!

will TFS handle around 25 GBs of files/data being accessed by 50 odd
users and programs?

Also you said, In fact, a number of new servers introduced with NetWare
6.5 simply don't work with TFS volumes (like CIFS access for instance).

What do you mean by this? The server we are running on is a Dell
Poweredge 4600 (around 3 years old). Could it be that we will not be able
to access the TFS from a Windows XP machine or am I getting the wrong
end of the stick? WIll w estill need the client with the TFS and is there
a limitation on the volume size wioth TFS?

Thanks
Jon

> jon@sqcp.com wrote:
>
> >just out of interest what is the difference between the two volumes? I
> >sthe NSS more stable?

>
> the (now called) TFS file system was introduced with Netware 3. It did
> it's job well all the time, but as volumes grew bigger and bigger, TFS

ran
> into scalibility problems. It couldn't handle files bigger than 4GB, it
> could only contain a limited number of files on a volume and if there

were
> a lot of files on a volume, the mount time would be very slow, and for

big
> volumes, a huge amount of memory was required just to mount a volume.
> To overcome these limitations and to add new features (like

journaling),
> Novell intruced the new file system NSS with NetWare 5.0. With NetWare
> 5.x, it still remained an optional file system and TFS remained the
> default, but with NetWare 6, the default changed and NSS is now the
> default. TFS can be considered the more stable file system as it has

been
> around much longer and there haven't been any functional changes to it

for
> many years. As such, the code is much more tried. NSS however continues

to
> be enahnced the whole time, and this sometimes leads to problems.
> Nevertheless, for NetWare 6.5 and above, using TFS is generally not
> recommended except if you need it for compatibility reasons for old DOS
> programs. In fact, a number of new servers introduced with NetWare 6.5
> simply don't work with TFS volumes (like CIFS access for instance).
>
> All in all, you shouldn't use TFS because it might be better, but you
> should only use it if you have old DOS applications that don't work in

NSS
> volumes and that require some old style behaviour that is only seen on

TFS
> volumes. So only use TFS if it fixes your problems. If it doesn't,

better
> stck with NSS instead.
>
> --
> Marcel Cox (using XanaNews 1.18.1.3)


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Re: NOVELL 6.5 AND WINDOWS 2003 SERVER PROBLEMS

jon@sqcp.com wrote:

>What do you mean by this? The server we are running on is a Dell
>Poweredge 4600 (around 3 years old). Could it be that we will not be able
>to access the TFS from a Windows XP machine or am I getting the wrong
>end of the stick? WIll w estill need the client with the TFS and is there
>a limitation on the volume size wioth TFS?


What you can't do with TFS on NetWare 6.5 is access it from a Windows
machine (any version) without a Novell client.

As for volume size, TFS can handle bigeer volumes, but this can increase
mount time. In any case, with a volume like that, you would probably have
to significantly change your server's cache tuning.

In any case, before commiting to moving to a TFS volume, you should first
do some tests with your applciation. The TFS suggestion is good if it
helps you fix your problems. However if it doesn't fix your problems, then
it would make no sense at all to move to TFS. So the first thing you need
to do is *test*. E.g. create a TFS module, put your clipper application on
it and let a couple of workstations access it together. ?See if the
locking problems remain.

--
Marcel Cox
http://support.novell.com/forums
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Re: NOVELL 6.5 AND WINDOWS 2003 SERVER PROBLEMS

Hi Marcel

We have added the client to two machines and the rest are just connecting
via a mapped drive. Does this mean the machines with the novell client
are not connecting via CIFs now and are running on netware ?


> jon@sqcp.com wrote:
>
> >What do you mean by this? The server we are running on is a Dell
> >Poweredge 4600 (around 3 years old). Could it be that we will not be

able
> >to access the TFS from a Windows XP machine or am I getting the wrong
> >end of the stick? WIll w estill need the client with the TFS and is

there
> >a limitation on the volume size wioth TFS?

>
> What you can't do with TFS on NetWare 6.5 is access it from a Windows
> machine (any version) without a Novell client.
>
> As for volume size, TFS can handle bigeer volumes, but this can

increase
> mount time. In any case, with a volume like that, you would probably

have
> to significantly change your server's cache tuning.
>
> In any case, before commiting to moving to a TFS volume, you should

first
> do some tests with your applciation. The TFS suggestion is good if it
> helps you fix your problems. However if it doesn't fix your problems,

then
> it would make no sense at all to move to TFS. So the first thing you

need
> to do is *test*. E.g. create a TFS module, put your clipper application

on
> it and let a couple of workstations access it together. ?See if the
> locking problems remain.
>
> --
> Marcel Cox
> http://support.novell.com/forums


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Re: NOVELL 6.5 AND WINDOWS 2003 SERVER PROBLEMS

jon@sqcp.com) wrote:

>Does this mean the machines with the novell client
>are not connecting via CIFs now

Yes

>and are running on netware ?

It's the server that is running NetWare, not the workstations.



--
Marcel Cox
http://support.novell.com/forums
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Re: NOVELL 6.5 AND WINDOWS 2003 SERVER PROBLEMS

do u think our whole network will run faster over ipx/spx


jon@sqcp.com) wrote:
>
> >Does this mean the machines with the novell client
> >are not connecting via CIFs now

> Yes
>
> >and are running on netware ?

> It's the server that is running NetWare, not the workstations.
>
>
>
> --
> Marcel Cox
> http://support.novell.com/forums


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Re: NOVELL 6.5 AND WINDOWS 2003 SERVER PROBLEMS

jon@sqcp.com wrote:

>do u think our whole network will run faster over ipx/spx


On a properly working LAN, TCP/IP and IPX performance with a Novell client
are very cleose to each other and should not be noticeable to end users.
It's only when you have poorly configured switches that cause traffic loss
because of duplex mismatches for example that you may see a significant
speed advantage for IPX. However in such a case, it would be better to fix
your LAN rathert ahn switch protocols to work around a serious network
problem.

--
Marcel Cox
http://support.novell.com/forums
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Re: NOVELL 6.5 AND WINDOWS 2003 SERVER PROBLEMS

Thanyou for all your help Marcel, greatly appreciated!

And finally.....why cant u run exe files on a Novell server?

jon@sqcp.com wrote:
>
> >do u think our whole network will run faster over ipx/spx

>
> On a properly working LAN, TCP/IP and IPX performance with a Novell

client
> are very cleose to each other and should not be noticeable to end users.
> It's only when you have poorly configured switches that cause traffic

loss
> because of duplex mismatches for example that you may see a significant
> speed advantage for IPX. However in such a case, it would be better to

fix
> your LAN rathert ahn switch protocols to work around a serious network
> problem.
>
> --
> Marcel Cox
> http://support.novell.com/forums


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