Anonymous_User Absent Member.
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Exchange 2007 vs Groupwise 8: Price

This is kinda in response 'Goodbye Groupwise', but I didn't want to
hijack that post as it's not in direct response to the topic. Awe
shucks maw, I had me a moment of niceness. 😛

I've been evaluating Exchange, Groupwise, and a few other option for the
place I work at. I spent some time talking to Microsoft about Exchange
licensing and this is what I gathered from those conversations. I won't
promise you that I understood correctly.

Basically the only thing I told them was that we want high availability,
the ability to run Exchange in a virtual environment, a web interface,
and that we have 50 connected devices and 100 e-mail accounts. And
here's what they suggested.

1 Server for each role plus a domain controller. Total of six servers
which the rep actually said we could get by with three. Two exchange
servers plus the domain controller. For high availability that turns
into six total servers all running Windows 2008 Enterprise. And of
course the hardware has to be 64bit. I was told VMware would work, but
haven't really checked into that yet.

I was told that I would need 50 Windows Server CALS for each server.
Which ends up being a total of 300 Windows Server CALS for 50 user
(unless I misunderstood the requirements).

For Exchange I would need at least two licenses for high availability.
50 Exchange CALS for each server group or 100 total Exchange CALS, plus
50 Exchange Enterprise CALS for each server group or 100 total Exchange
Enterprise CALS. (I'm not real sure why we would need the Enterprise
CALS though. We aren't going to be using unified messaging or anything
that's covered under the Ent License unless it's required for HA.)

So the total for us to get started with under those conditions would be
just shy of $41,000 and that includes no hardware or virtualization
licensing or Outlook licensing (although admittedly Outlook licensing is
taken care of with Office purchase or through the web interface).

For Groupwise 8... $13,000 for 100 users and 1 year of SA. That
includes the server OS and eDirectory. To my understanding I could
install GW on 2 servers for high availability at no extra cost and I
could install another server for web interface. For that matter I could
break it all down into more pieces with no extra cost involved. So for
the four server Exchange would be on GW would still only cost me the
$13,000.

That is my understanding. If I'm wrong on any part of this please feel
free to correct me. I'm still trying to understand all the licensing facts.
--
Matthew - The Great System Tyrant
--------------------------------->
http://www.matthewdgood.com
http://www.systemtyrant.com
http://www.mattography.net
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52 Replies
Anonymous_User Absent Member.
Absent Member.

Re: Exchange 2007 vs Groupwise 8: Price

Matthew wrote:
> This is kinda in response 'Goodbye Groupwise', but I didn't want to
> hijack that post as it's not in direct response to the topic. Awe
> shucks maw, I had me a moment of niceness. 😛
>
> I've been evaluating Exchange, Groupwise, and a few other option for the
> place I work at. I spent some time talking to Microsoft about Exchange
> licensing and this is what I gathered from those conversations. I won't
> promise you that I understood correctly.
>
> Basically the only thing I told them was that we want high availability,
> the ability to run Exchange in a virtual environment, a web interface,
> and that we have 50 connected devices and 100 e-mail accounts. And
> here's what they suggested.
>
> 1 Server for each role plus a domain controller. Total of six servers
> which the rep actually said we could get by with three. Two exchange
> servers plus the domain controller. For high availability that turns
> into six total servers all running Windows 2008 Enterprise. And of
> course the hardware has to be 64bit. I was told VMware would work, but
> haven't really checked into that yet.
>
> I was told that I would need 50 Windows Server CALS for each server.
> Which ends up being a total of 300 Windows Server CALS for 50 user
> (unless I misunderstood the requirements).
>
> For Exchange I would need at least two licenses for high availability.
> 50 Exchange CALS for each server group or 100 total Exchange CALS, plus
> 50 Exchange Enterprise CALS for each server group or 100 total Exchange
> Enterprise CALS. (I'm not real sure why we would need the Enterprise
> CALS though. We aren't going to be using unified messaging or anything
> that's covered under the Ent License unless it's required for HA.)
>
> So the total for us to get started with under those conditions would be
> just shy of $41,000 and that includes no hardware or virtualization
> licensing or Outlook licensing (although admittedly Outlook licensing is
> taken care of with Office purchase or through the web interface).
>
> For Groupwise 8... $13,000 for 100 users and 1 year of SA. That
> includes the server OS and eDirectory. To my understanding I could
> install GW on 2 servers for high availability at no extra cost and I
> could install another server for web interface. For that matter I could
> break it all down into more pieces with no extra cost involved. So for
> the four server Exchange would be on GW would still only cost me the
> $13,000.
>
> That is my understanding. If I'm wrong on any part of this please feel
> free to correct me. I'm still trying to understand all the licensing
> facts.


I should mention that it would take around 10 years of maintenance for
GW to equal the price of Exchange if my understanding is correct.
However, I'm not 100% sure that I fully understand the licensing of
Exchange or GW.

--
Matthew - The Great System Tyrant
--------------------------------->
http://www.matthewdgood.com
http://www.systemtyrant.com
http://www.mattography.net
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jmarton2 Absent Member.
Absent Member.

Re: Exchange 2007 vs Groupwise 8: Price

Matthew wrote:

> For Groupwise 8... $13,000 for 100 users and 1 year of SA.


That's probably right. From what I'm seeing on CDW's site, it looks
like it would be $13,399 for 100 users including 1 year of priority
maintenance.

http://www.cdw.com/shop/products/default.aspx?EDC=1407513

I'm not sure what the part number is to get it with standard
maintenance, but since you're talking about HA it sounds like you'd want
priority maintenance anyways.

> That
> includes the server OS and eDirectory.


Yes, when you buy GroupWise, you are given everything you need to run it
as long as you want to run it on SLES. If you want to use OES, NetWare,
or Windows then you must purchase the OS separately.

> To my understanding I could
> install GW on 2 servers for high availability at no extra cost and I
> could install another server for web interface.


So here's the thing to keep in mind with HA, and this applies to both
Exchange and GroupWise. Since you plan on using virtualization,
assuming you go with VI3 and not the free VMware Server or ESX3i then
you can use VMware for your virtualization. For instance, here we have
three ESX hosts even though with the number of VMs we run we could get
by with two. The idea is that one can go down either for planned
maintenance or for some unplanned problem and the other two carry the
load. We do our HA through there. Plus each server itself has
redundancy via RAID (for the locally running OS, ESX), fans, power
supplies, etc. The SAN has redundancy in the drives at least and
hopefully next year will have redundancy in the FC switch as well.

So if you decide to do it at the hypervisor layer that can potentially
simplify things. If you do that, then for Exchange you won't need as
many components. For GroupWise you could create two VMs, one for your
domain & post office and then use dbcopy/reload to copy everything over
to another VM for "standby." Put GWIA & WebAccess on a separate VM, and
if something happens it's not all that tough to at least install a new GWIA.

--
Joe
Does this washcloth smell like chloroform?

Joe Marton Emeritus Knowledge Partner
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Anonymous_User Absent Member.
Absent Member.

Re: Exchange 2007 vs Groupwise 8: Price

With 100 users you could also look at the new OS EBS (Essential Business
Systems) which is sort of super SBS with 4 servers and 50 to 250 users. The
Exchange CALs come with the User CALs on both SBS and EBS so the costs MIGHT
be a bit lower for you. For virtualization M$ has HyperV now which is also
free.and works quite well.

>I spent some time talking to Microsoft about Exchange licensing and this is
>what I gathered from those conversations. I won't promise you that I
>understood correctly


NOBODY at M$ understands licensing either so don't be alarmed :>)

--
Frank McCallister
COMPUMAC

"Matthew" <"system[bad]tyrant"@|spammers|gmail.com> wrote in message
news:Rvp_k.6263$wo4.81@kovat.provo.novell.com...
> This is kinda in response 'Goodbye Groupwise', but I didn't want to hijack
> that post as it's not in direct response to the topic. Awe shucks maw, I
> had me a moment of niceness. 😛
>
> I've been evaluating Exchange, Groupwise, and a few other option for the
> place I work at. I spent some time talking to Microsoft about Exchange
> licensing and this is what I gathered from those conversations. I won't
> promise you that I understood correctly.
>
> Basically the only thing I told them was that we want high availability,
> the ability to run Exchange in a virtual environment, a web interface, and
> that we have 50 connected devices and 100 e-mail accounts. And here's what
> they suggested.
>
> 1 Server for each role plus a domain controller. Total of six servers
> which the rep actually said we could get by with three. Two exchange
> servers plus the domain controller. For high availability that turns into
> six total servers all running Windows 2008 Enterprise. And of course the
> hardware has to be 64bit. I was told VMware would work, but haven't
> really checked into that yet.
>
> I was told that I would need 50 Windows Server CALS for each server. Which
> ends up being a total of 300 Windows Server CALS for 50 user (unless I
> misunderstood the requirements).
>
> For Exchange I would need at least two licenses for high availability. 50
> Exchange CALS for each server group or 100 total Exchange CALS, plus 50
> Exchange Enterprise CALS for each server group or 100 total Exchange
> Enterprise CALS. (I'm not real sure why we would need the Enterprise CALS
> though. We aren't going to be using unified messaging or anything that's
> covered under the Ent License unless it's required for HA.)
>
> So the total for us to get started with under those conditions would be
> just shy of $41,000 and that includes no hardware or virtualization
> licensing or Outlook licensing (although admittedly Outlook licensing is
> taken care of with Office purchase or through the web interface).
>
> For Groupwise 8... $13,000 for 100 users and 1 year of SA. That includes
> the server OS and eDirectory. To my understanding I could install GW on 2
> servers for high availability at no extra cost and I could install another
> server for web interface. For that matter I could break it all down into
> more pieces with no extra cost involved. So for the four server Exchange
> would be on GW would still only cost me the $13,000.
>
> That is my understanding. If I'm wrong on any part of this please feel
> free to correct me. I'm still trying to understand all the licensing
> facts.
> --
> Matthew - The Great System Tyrant
> --------------------------------->
> http://www.matthewdgood.com
> http://www.systemtyrant.com
> http://www.mattography.net


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Knowledge Partner

Re: Exchange 2007 vs Groupwise 8: Price

Matthew,
> To my understanding I could
> install GW on 2 servers for high availability at no extra cost and I
> could install another server for web interface.
>

And your understanding is correct.

- Anders Gustafsson (Sysop)
The Aaland Islands (N60 E20)

Discover the Novell forums at http://forums.novell.com

Novell does not monitor these forums officially.
Enhancement requests for all Novell products may be made at
http://support.novell.com/enhancement

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jmarton2 Absent Member.
Absent Member.

Re: Exchange 2007 vs Groupwise 8: Price

Frank McCallister wrote:

> For virtualization M$ has HyperV now
> which is also free.and works quite well.


I'd trust VMware (Server, ESX, ESXi) before I'd trust HyperV or Xen.

--
Joe
Does this washcloth smell like chloroform?

Joe Marton Emeritus Knowledge Partner
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Knowledge Partner

Re: Exchange 2007 vs Groupwise 8: Price

Joseph Marton,
> I'd trust VMware (Server, ESX, ESXi) before I'd trust HyperV or Xen.
>

You mean VMWare, Xen or HyperV. In that order... For Linux
virtualisations, Xen may have the upper hand. For General-purpose
Virtualisation, then VMWare is king... HyperV, I cannot think of any
reason to use it.

- Anders Gustafsson (Sysop)
The Aaland Islands (N60 E20)

Discover the Novell forums at http://forums.novell.com

Novell does not monitor these forums officially.
Enhancement requests for all Novell products may be made at
http://support.novell.com/enhancement

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Anonymous_User Absent Member.
Absent Member.

Re: Exchange 2007 vs Groupwise 8: Price

Have you tried HyperV? Is there a reason you don't trust HyperV other than
it is Darkside :>)

--
Frank McCallister
COMPUMAC

"Joseph Marton" <jmartonNO@SPAMhsemuni.com> wrote in message
news:Jjy_k.6314$wo4.3368@kovat.provo.novell.com...
> Frank McCallister wrote:
>
>> For virtualization M$ has HyperV now which is also free.and works quite
>> well.

>
> I'd trust VMware (Server, ESX, ESXi) before I'd trust HyperV or Xen.
>
> --
> Joe
> Does this washcloth smell like chloroform?


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Knowledge Partner

Re: Exchange 2007 vs Groupwise 8: Price

Frank McCallister,
> Have you tried HyperV?
>

Nope, I trust the comparisons others have done. It appears that few
trust HyperV to run production. OTOH VMWare workstation, Server and ESX
are stable and mature products.

I have been a VMWare Workstation user for many years and have been
running VMWare server in production for close to a year. HyperV costs
an arm and a leg (For windows and the HW to run it) and I see no
compelling reasons for it.

- Anders Gustafsson (Sysop)
The Aaland Islands (N60 E20)

Discover the Novell forums at http://forums.novell.com

Novell does not monitor these forums officially.
Enhancement requests for all Novell products may be made at
http://support.novell.com/enhancement

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jmarton2 Absent Member.
Absent Member.

Re: Exchange 2007 vs Groupwise 8: Price

Frank McCallister wrote:

> Have you tried HyperV? Is there a reason you don't trust HyperV other
> than it is Darkside :>)


How long has HyperV been around?

'Nuff said.

--
Joe
Does this washcloth smell like chloroform?

Joe Marton Emeritus Knowledge Partner
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jmarton2 Absent Member.
Absent Member.

Re: Exchange 2007 vs Groupwise 8: Price

Anders Gustafsson wrote:

> You mean VMWare, Xen or HyperV. In that order... For Linux
> virtualisations, Xen may have the upper hand.


Eh, I dunno. VMware's focus is definitely more Microsoft oriented, but
still they've made strides to offer paravirtualization by working with
Novell on VMI. I think even with Linux I'd still lean towards VMware at
this point.

--
Joe
Does this washcloth smell like chloroform?

Joe Marton Emeritus Knowledge Partner
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Anonymous_User Absent Member.
Absent Member.

Re: Exchange 2007 vs Groupwise 8: Price

Anders Gustafsson wrote:
> Matthew,
>> To my understanding I could
>> install GW on 2 servers for high availability at no extra cost and I
>> could install another server for web interface.
>>

> And your understanding is correct.
>
> - Anders Gustafsson (Sysop)
> The Aaland Islands (N60 E20)
>
> Discover the Novell forums at http://forums.novell.com
>
> Novell does not monitor these forums officially.
> Enhancement requests for all Novell products may be made at
> http://support.novell.com/enhancement
>


It would be interesting to see true third party TCO for both GW and
Exhcange scaling from a small 100 user single domain base to a huge
multi user multi domain base. I doubt it could be apples to apples, but
it would be interesting all the same.

--
Matthew - The Great System Tyrant
--------------------------------->
http://www.matthewdgood.com
http://www.systemtyrant.com
http://www.mattography.net
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Re: Exchange 2007 vs Groupwise 8: Price

Matthew,
> It would be interesting to see true third party TCO for both GW and
> Exhcange scaling from a small 100 user single domain base to a huge
> multi user multi domain base. I doubt it could be apples to apples, but
> it would be interesting all the same.
>

From what I have seen of Exchange, it requires not only more HW but also
more admins.

- Anders Gustafsson (Sysop)
The Aaland Islands (N60 E20)

Discover the Novell forums at http://forums.novell.com

Novell does not monitor these forums officially.
Enhancement requests for all Novell products may be made at
http://support.novell.com/enhancement

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Anonymous_User Absent Member.
Absent Member.

Re: Exchange 2007 vs Groupwise 8: Price

Anders Gustafsson wrote:
> Matthew,
>> It would be interesting to see true third party TCO for both GW and
>> Exhcange scaling from a small 100 user single domain base to a huge
>> multi user multi domain base. I doubt it could be apples to apples, but
>> it would be interesting all the same.
>>

> From what I have seen of Exchange, it requires not only more HW but also
> more admins.
>
> - Anders Gustafsson (Sysop)
> The Aaland Islands (N60 E20)
>
> Discover the Novell forums at http://forums.novell.com
>
> Novell does not monitor these forums officially.
> Enhancement requests for all Novell products may be made at
> http://support.novell.com/enhancement
>


Forgetting hardware I got scared when even the Microsoft reps started
telling me that we really need to have a dedicated Exchange
administrator on staff to deal with Exchange, even with the small number
of user we have.

My favorite still is that to run an Exchanger server correctly you must
divide it up into it's five separate rolls. He even hinted that you
need an administrator for each roll.

--
Matthew - The Great System Tyrant
--------------------------------->
http://www.matthewdgood.com
http://www.systemtyrant.com
http://www.mattography.net
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Knowledge Partner

Re: Exchange 2007 vs Groupwise 8: Price

Matthew,
> My favorite still is that to run an Exchanger server correctly you must
> divide it up into it's five separate rolls. He even hinted that you
> need an administrator for each roll.
>

Ho hum.. I have clients with thousands of users on one server and admin is
someone's part-time stuff...

- Anders Gustafsson (Sysop)
The Aaland Islands (N60 E20)

Discover the Novell forums at http://forums.novell.com

Novell does not monitor these forums officially.
Enhancement requests for all Novell products may be made at
http://support.novell.com/enhancement

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