Anonymous_User Absent Member.
Absent Member.

Re: Exchange 2007 vs Groupwise 8: Price

Anders Gustafsson wrote:
> Matthew,
>> My favorite still is that to run an Exchanger server correctly you must
>> divide it up into it's five separate rolls. He even hinted that you
>> need an administrator for each roll.
>>

> Ho hum.. I have clients with thousands of users on one server and admin is
> someone's part-time stuff...
>
> - Anders Gustafsson (Sysop)
> The Aaland Islands (N60 E20)
>
> Discover the Novell forums at http://forums.novell.com
>
> Novell does not monitor these forums officially.
> Enhancement requests for all Novell products may be made at
> http://support.novell.com/enhancement
>


Um... for Exchange?
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Marcel_Cox Absent Member.
Absent Member.

Re: Exchange 2007 vs Groupwise 8: Price

Disclaimer: don't take my message as an authoritative source of
information for Microsoft licensing. What I'm saying here may be wrong.

I think you got the CAL part wrong. In general, the Microsoft licensing
works by purchasing licenses for your servers and licenses for your users
or devices (user or device CALs). The CALs are paid once per user (or per
device depending what licensing model you have available for the product
and what licvensing model you choose). A CAL license is good to connect to
any number of servers matching the type and version of the CAL. So for
example if you have 50 devices and you use the device CAL licensing for
your server licenses, then you just have to purchase 50 server CALs in
total, and not 2 times 50 CALs. The same holds for the Exchange CALs.
You will however need a Windows server license for each server you are
runnign an an Exchange license for each copy of Exchange you are running.
Note that if you are using a virtualized envionment and you are using then
one Windows 2008 EE license is OK to run up to 4 virtual servers on the
same physical machine.

Now assuming you run the whole installation on 2 physical machines, that
would give you the following license requirements:

2 Windows 2008 server EE licenses
2 Exchange server licenses
50 Windows 2008 server CALs
50 Exchange CALs
50 Exchange enterprise CALs

Now using the list prices shown here:
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsserver2008/en/us/pricing.aspx
http://www.microsoft.com/exchange/howtobuy/default.mspx

This would give you:

2x Windows 2008 EE : 2x$3999 = $7998
2x Exchange : 2x$699 = $1398 (if you need Exchange enterprise edition,
then it becomes 2x$3999 = $7998).
50 Windows 2008 server CALs : 0 (25 CALs included with each server license)
50x Exchange CAL : 50x$67 = $3350
50x Exchange enterprise CAL : 50x$35 = $1750

Total : $14496 (list price, with this volume, you can actually use volume
licensing which gives you lower overall prices).

--
Marcel Cox
http://support.novell.com/forums
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Marcel Cox's Profile: http://forums.novell.com/member.php?userid=8
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Knowledge Partner
Knowledge Partner

Re: Exchange 2007 vs Groupwise 8: Price

Matthew,
> Um... for Exchange?
>

No, GroupWise, naturally

- Anders Gustafsson (Sysop)
The Aaland Islands (N60 E20)

Discover the Novell forums at http://forums.novell.com

Novell does not monitor these forums officially.
Enhancement requests for all Novell products may be made at
http://support.novell.com/enhancement

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Anonymous_User Absent Member.
Absent Member.

Re: Exchange 2007 vs Groupwise 8: Price

Anders Gustafsson wrote:
> Matthew,
>> Um... for Exchange?
>>

> No, GroupWise, naturally
>
> - Anders Gustafsson (Sysop)
> The Aaland Islands (N60 E20)
>
> Discover the Novell forums at http://forums.novell.com
>
> Novell does not monitor these forums officially.
> Enhancement requests for all Novell products may be made at
> http://support.novell.com/enhancement
>


Ah. It kind of came off like you were talking about Exchange. I have
to admit I was a bit shocked to hear somebody say that about Exchange,
but now that I know you weren't talking about Exchange it's not such a
shocking statement. 😛
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Anonymous_User Absent Member.
Absent Member.

Re: Exchange 2007 vs Groupwise 8: Price

Marcel Cox wrote:
> Disclaimer: don't take my message as an authoritative source of
> information for Microsoft licensing. What I'm saying here may be wrong.
>
> I think you got the CAL part wrong. In general, the Microsoft licensing
> works by purchasing licenses for your servers and licenses for your
> users or devices (user or device CALs). The CALs are paid once per user
> (or per device depending what licensing model you have available for the
> product and what licvensing model you choose). A CAL license is good to
> connect to any number of servers matching the type and version of the
> CAL. So for example if you have 50 devices and you use the device CAL
> licensing for your server licenses, then you just have to purchase 50
> server CALs in total, and not 2 times 50 CALs. The same holds for the
> Exchange CALs.
> You will however need a Windows server license for each server you are
> runnign an an Exchange license for each copy of Exchange you are
> running. Note that if you are using a virtualized envionment and you are
> using then one Windows 2008 EE license is OK to run up to 4 virtual
> servers on the same physical machine.
>
> Now assuming you run the whole installation on 2 physical machines, that
> would give you the following license requirements:
>
> 2 Windows 2008 server EE licenses
> 2 Exchange server licenses
> 50 Windows 2008 server CALs
> 50 Exchange CALs
> 50 Exchange enterprise CALs
>
> Now using the list prices shown here:
> http://www.microsoft.com/windowsserver2008/en/us/pricing.aspx
> http://www.microsoft.com/exchange/howtobuy/default.mspx
>
> This would give you:
>
> 2x Windows 2008 EE : 2x$3999 = $7998
> 2x Exchange : 2x$699 = $1398 (if you need Exchange enterprise edition,
> then it becomes 2x$3999 = $7998).
> 50 Windows 2008 server CALs : 0 (25 CALs included with each server license)
> 50x Exchange CAL : 50x$67 = $3350
> 50x Exchange enterprise CAL : 50x$35 = $1750
>
> Total : $14496 (list price, with this volume, you can actually use
> volume licensing which gives you lower overall prices).
>



That would make more sense. I'm not altogether sure that the rep I
talked to understood what I was trying to do and I'm fairly sure I
didn't understand him all that well.

That would probably also explain why when I told a local fellow here
about it and the price he looked rather shocked considering his Exchange
2007 install cost him just a little over $10,000 (don't know the details).

I still think I'm going with Groupwise though. I've yet to talk to one
person that's familiar with Exchange that's made it sound like a better
investment. After all money spent on licensing isn't the only cost. My
sanity is pretty expensive too. 😛
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Anonymous_User Absent Member.
Absent Member.

Re: Exchange 2007 vs Groupwise 8: Price

FYI: If you virtualize with hyper-V (Server 2008) you will get free
server cals (not user) for all virtual servers on that box.


--
Timothy Leerhoff
"4 wheels move the body, 2 wheels move the soul!"

"There is nothing worse than aggressive stupidity."
- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
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Anonymous_User Absent Member.
Absent Member.

Re: Exchange 2007 vs Groupwise 8: Price

One thing to know is the number of server you need to get a minimal
Exchange system going. If you do not have AD already running this
number can be quite oppresive.

IIRC by MS specs it works out similar to this:

2 DCs
2 PKI servers
2 Exchange back end servers
1 Exchange front end server
and I think there are more but cannot remember all of what our MS guy
told me. I lost count.

And I cannot tell you now many need to be 64 bit versions, which makes
the server hardware even pricier.


--
Timothy Leerhoff
"4 wheels move the body, 2 wheels move the soul!"

"There is nothing worse than aggressive stupidity."
- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
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Anonymous_User Absent Member.
Absent Member.

Re: Exchange 2007 vs Groupwise 8: Price

Depends on number of users of course. If you have 300 users or less you can
use EBS with only one Exchange server and 3 or more servers.

--
Frank McCallister
COMPUMAC

"Timothy Leerhoff" <tleerhoffNO@SPAMqwest.net> wrote in message
news:kW%_k.6525$wo4.1298@kovat.provo.novell.com...
> One thing to know is the number of server you need to get a minimal
> Exchange system going. If you do not have AD already running this
> number can be quite oppresive.
>
> IIRC by MS specs it works out similar to this:
>
> 2 DCs
> 2 PKI servers
> 2 Exchange back end servers
> 1 Exchange front end server
> and I think there are more but cannot remember all of what our MS guy
> told me. I lost count.
>
> And I cannot tell you now many need to be 64 bit versions, which makes
> the server hardware even pricier.
>
>
> --
> Timothy Leerhoff
> "4 wheels move the body, 2 wheels move the soul!"
>
> "There is nothing worse than aggressive stupidity."
> - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe


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Anonymous_User Absent Member.
Absent Member.

Re: Exchange 2007 vs Groupwise 8: Price

Frank McCallister wrote:
> Depends on number of users of course. If you have 300 users or less you
> can use EBS with only one Exchange server and 3 or more servers.
>


I'm not real keen on Microsoft's package deals. That's just me though.

--
Matthew - The Great System Tyrant
--------------------------------->
http://www.matthewdgood.com
http://www.systemtyrant.com
http://www.mattography.net
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Anonymous_User Absent Member.
Absent Member.

Re: Exchange 2007 vs Groupwise 8: Price

In article <Rvp_k.6263$wo4.81@kovat.provo.novell.com>, Matthew <"system
[bad]tyrant"@|spammers|gmail.com> says...
> This is kinda in response 'Goodbye Groupwise', but I didn't want to
> hijack that post as it's not in direct response to the topic. Awe
> shucks maw, I had me a moment of niceness. 😛
>
> I've been evaluating Exchange, Groupwise, and a few other option for the
> place I work at. I spent some time talking to Microsoft about Exchange
> licensing and this is what I gathered from those conversations. I won't
> promise you that I understood correctly.
>
> Basically the only thing I told them was that we want high availability,
> the ability to run Exchange in a virtual environment, a web interface,
> and that we have 50 connected devices and 100 e-mail accounts. And
> here's what they suggested.
>
> 1 Server for each role plus a domain controller. Total of six servers
> which the rep actually said we could get by with three. Two exchange
> servers plus the domain controller. For high availability that turns
> into six total servers all running Windows 2008 Enterprise. And of
> course the hardware has to be 64bit. I was told VMware would work, but
> haven't really checked into that yet.
>
> I was told that I would need 50 Windows Server CALS for each server.
> Which ends up being a total of 300 Windows Server CALS for 50 user
> (unless I misunderstood the requirements).


You may have misunderstood. With 2003 and up, MS introduced a USER-
based licensing (similar to Novell's MLA). So if you're total AD has
say, 500 users, you pay for just 500 CALs no matter how many servers you
have. You still have to pay for the server licenses, though. In our
case, we already have/own the AD licenses due to other apps.

>
> For Exchange I would need at least two licenses for high availability.
> 50 Exchange CALS for each server group or 100 total Exchange CALS, plus
> 50 Exchange Enterprise CALS for each server group or 100 total Exchange
> Enterprise CALS. (I'm not real sure why we would need the Enterprise
> CALS though. We aren't going to be using unified messaging or anything
> that's covered under the Ent License unless it's required for HA.)


I think this may be incorrect. Exchange comes with all licenses it
needs for "HA" except for the Windows server itself. At least when I
looked at the docs for Enterprise (it is confusing though, so I could be
wrong too). Since we don't run our Groupwise an an active/passive mode
(meaning we don't have a NetWare sever just sitting there running
nothing, waiting for the primary to fail over). All nodes run groupwise
and if node1 fails, it'll fail over to a node already running groupwise.
>
> So the total for us to get started with under those conditions would be
> just shy of $41,000 and that includes no hardware or virtualization
> licensing or Outlook licensing (although admittedly Outlook licensing is
> taken care of with Office purchase or through the web interface).
>
> For Groupwise 8... $13,000 for 100 users and 1 year of SA. That
> includes the server OS and eDirectory. To my understanding I could
> install GW on 2 servers for high availability at no extra cost and I
> could install another server for web interface. For that matter I could
> break it all down into more pieces with no extra cost involved. So for
> the four server Exchange would be on GW would still only cost me the
> $13,000.
>
> That is my understanding. If I'm wrong on any part of this please feel
> free to correct me. I'm still trying to understand all the licensing facts.
>


I imagine it would depend on the situation. For us, we already have 64-
bit hardware, so it's no big deal. If I looked at our licensing
correctly (for Exchange/Windows), the breakdown went something like
this:

GroupWise yearly costs (licensing) for us: $84,000/year. Let's say
it's 5 years (I use that # only because MS updates Exchange about every
4-5 years). So if we said 5 years then we get $420,000 (this would be
for 5250 mailboxes).

Exchange (this is including the Windows 2008 server licenses, as well):
Initial cost (for only 4750 because we don't have to pay for shared
mailboxes and I estimated 500 of them):

$200,090 for initial purchase
Let's say 5 years, we have to upgrade, since we didn't buy SA, we have
to pay full price again of $200,090
Total 5 year cost: 400,180

Still cheaper than GroupWise (a little bit).

Assuming all the licensing is correct of course. (I don't think even MS
understands their own licensing).
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Anonymous_User Absent Member.
Absent Member.

Re: Exchange 2007 vs Groupwise 8: Price



"Timothy Leerhoff" <tleerhoffNO@SPAMqwest.net> wrote in message
news:kW%_k.6525$wo4.1298@kovat.provo.novell.com...

> And I cannot tell you now many need to be 64 bit versions, which makes
> the server hardware even pricier.


Really? Who still makes a 32-bit only server these days? Xeons have been
64-bit for years, so unless you're trying to repurpose some ancient servers
the "cost" of a 64-bit server versus 32-bit is Zero.



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Anonymous_User Absent Member.
Absent Member.

Re: Exchange 2007 vs Groupwise 8: Price



"Matthew" <"system[bad]tyrant"@|spammers|gmail.com> wrote in message
news:jLA_k.6365$wo4.2192@kovat.provo.novell.com...

> My favorite still is that to run an Exchanger server correctly you must
> divide it up into it's five separate rolls. He even hinted that you need
> an administrator for each roll.


That's just plain silly. For an implementation of your size, one person can
easily admin the whole thing - and it won't need to be a full-time gig
either.

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grimlock1 Absent Member.
Absent Member.

Re: Exchange 2007 vs Groupwise 8: Price

KittyNoLegs wrote:

> Assuming all the licensing is correct of course. (I don't think even MS
> understands their own licensing).


I bet you can call 3 reps at 3 resellers and get conflicting info.. It's
insane dealing with MS licensing.
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zeffan Absent Member.
Absent Member.

Re: Exchange 2007 vs Groupwise 8: Price

I have clients with thousands of users on one server and admin is
someone's part-time stuff...


Same here.
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Community Manager kgroneman Community Manager
Community Manager

Re: Exchange 2007 vs Groupwise 8: Price

Hey Matthew:

> I still think I'm going with Groupwise though.


Figure into that the friends you have here in the Novell forums and all
the advice/assistance you can get here over the next few years if you
are on GW. That's gotta be worth something.

--
Kim (12/8/2008 10:11:19 AM Mountain)
--
My computer used to beat me at chess all the time, but then I changed the competition to kick boxing.......
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