Anonymous_User Absent Member.
Absent Member.

Re: Exchange 2007 vs Groupwise 8: Price

I think it comes down to cost really. We choose Virtual Iron and haven't
looked back.

Joseph Marton wrote:
> Anders Gustafsson wrote:
>
>> You mean VMWare, Xen or HyperV. In that order... For Linux
>> virtualisations, Xen may have the upper hand.

>
> Eh, I dunno. VMware's focus is definitely more Microsoft oriented, but
> still they've made strides to offer paravirtualization by working with
> Novell on VMI. I think even with Linux I'd still lean towards VMware at
> this point.
>

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Anonymous_User Absent Member.
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Re: Exchange 2007 vs Groupwise 8: Price

We just upgraded to Exchange 2007 (from Exchange 2000). I have to admit,
it's not much to administer, but horrible to get up and running, let
alone performing well.

We have 2 physical and 2 Virtual Mailbox servers (clustered)currently
hosting only 80 mailboxes, with the remaining 400 or so left to be
transitioned.

In the past 2 months we've already experienced database corruption and
server performance issues (due to Exchange 07 wanting all available
physical RAM). We're still battling the performance issues, due in part
to out very large mailboxes.

We also have 2 servers to handle OWA and all of the other Client Access
stuff.

I am currently testing Zimbra and wanted to test Post Path but Cisco
went and bought them recently...

Exchange may be the only choice you have left over GroupWise...it's too
bad too. We really do need a better Enterprise email system.
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Anonymous_User Absent Member.
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Re: Exchange 2007 vs Groupwise 8: Price

> FYI: If you virtualize with hyper-V (Server 2008) you will get free
> server cals (not user) for all virtual servers on that box.


Verified you need to buy 2008 datacenter to get the above.

--
Timothy Leerhoff
"4 wheels move the body, 2 wheels move the soul!"

"There is nothing worse than aggressive stupidity."
- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
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Anonymous_User Absent Member.
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Re: Exchange 2007 vs Groupwise 8: Price



"Timothy Leerhoff" <tleerhoffNO@SPAMqwest.net> wrote in message
news:rZe%k.6787$wo4.6287@kovat.provo.novell.com...

>> FYI: If you virtualize with hyper-V (Server 2008) you will get free
>> server cals (not user) for all virtual servers on that box.

>
> Verified you need to buy 2008 datacenter to get the above.


True for unlimited servers. If you install Enterprise Edition of 2008, you
may install 4 virtual servers under Hyper-V on that same server. Datacenter
is the one that gives you unlimited virtualized servers under Hyper-V (or
VMWare for that matter - buy the CPU licenses but you don't actually install
Datacenter).


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jmarton2 Absent Member.
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Re: Exchange 2007 vs Groupwise 8: Price

On Mon, 08 Dec 2008 20:04:36 +0000, Chupacabra wrote:

> True for unlimited servers. If you install Enterprise Edition of 2008,
> you may install 4 virtual servers under Hyper-V on that same server.
> Datacenter is the one that gives you unlimited virtualized servers under
> Hyper-V (or VMWare for that matter - buy the CPU licenses but you don't
> actually install Datacenter).


Or you can just use SLES where a single SLES subscription covers all VMs
on the same physical host regardless of which hypervisor (VMware, Xen,
HyperV, etc) is being used.



--
Joe
Does this washcloth smell like chloroform?

Joe Marton Emeritus Knowledge Partner
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buckesfeld Absent Member.
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Re: Exchange 2007 vs Groupwise 8: Price

On Mon, 08 Dec 2008 18:49:05 GMT
"Luis C. Wiedemann" <lwiedemann@broadandcassel.com> wrote:

> Exchange may be the only choice you have left over GroupWise...it's
> too bad too. We really do need a better Enterprise email system.


You could try Lotus Domino/Notes. It is an admin's nightmare, though.

U
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Anonymous_User Absent Member.
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Re: Exchange 2007 vs Groupwise 8: Price

Patrick Farrell wrote:
> KittyNoLegs wrote:
>
>> Assuming all the licensing is correct of course. (I don't think even
>> MS understands their own licensing).

>
> I bet you can call 3 reps at 3 resellers and get conflicting info.. It's
> insane dealing with MS licensing.


Novell Licensing and their sales people isn't much better...

I just turned up at a customer site and found they had their licensing
costs doubled..

because they installed a identity vault. According to Novell... they
have two trees so should pay twice for the licenses... even though the
accounts are the same users in both trees.

Then Novell wanted to charge a license per object in the Identity Vault
which includes groups.... Novell told the customer if they did not pay
up they would have to remove it as they were using government licensing.

PS they have the full version of identity manager (i.e they licensed it,
not just the freebe copy...)

The customer has Active Directory and uses Lotus Notes, they only use
Novell for File and Print and basic ZENworks. I was surprised they paid
up.. Anyhow I will be call Novell to ensure the licensing is correct..

My experience of exchange 2003 has been great. yes we need 5 servers
2 x DC (vmware)
1 x Front end (vmware)
2 x Cluster servers

No one really has to administer the environment, it looks after itself.

We have 15 iPhones plus other windows mobiles all working no problems.

So sure Groupwise maybe good, I don't know never used it. but Exchange
works and is stable and really is not that hard to look after..

in fact the only issue I have is the fact the imap service doesn't sync
properly with the mapi service, resulting in duplicate mails.
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Anonymous_User Absent Member.
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Re: Exchange 2007 vs Groupwise 8: Price



"Joseph Marton" <jmartonNO@SPAMhsemuni.com> wrote in message
news:j1j%k.6950$wo4.1790@kovat.provo.novell.com...

> Or you can just use SLES where a single SLES subscription covers all VMs
> on the same physical host regardless of which hypervisor (VMware, Xen,
> HyperV, etc) is being used.


If you're sticking with GroupWise, then that might make sense. If you're
moving to Exchange, it doesn't.


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Anonymous_User Absent Member.
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Re: Exchange 2007 vs Groupwise 8: Price

In article <OUm%k.6992$wo4.1325@kovat.provo.novell.com>,
u.buckesfeld@gmx.de says...
> On Mon, 08 Dec 2008 18:49:05 GMT
> "Luis C. Wiedemann" <lwiedemann@broadandcassel.com> wrote:
>
> > Exchange may be the only choice you have left over GroupWise...it's
> > too bad too. We really do need a better Enterprise email system.

>
> You could try Lotus Domino/Notes. It is an admin's nightmare, though.
>
> U
>


Yeah, from a technical perspective I lean towards Notes.

Only because it gives one much more choice as to what OS to run it on,
etc.

With Exchange, you HAVE to run on Windows, and it has to be 64-bit
version and you can only use IE (realistically) for webaccess (OWA Lite
is truly terrible).

Upgrades (in theory) as easier.

The biggest technical challenge, IMO, for Exchange is that ANY upgrade
requires you to take a new physical server (if using physical servers),
install the OS from scratch and install Exchange and move mailboxes.
There's no in-place OS upgrade (and MS advises against it) and you
CANNOT in-place upgrade Exchange period. You MUST install it on a new
server and move the mailboxes over.
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jmarton2 Absent Member.
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Re: Exchange 2007 vs Groupwise 8: Price

On Tue, 09 Dec 2008 15:30:15 +0000, Chupacabra wrote:

> If you're sticking with GroupWise, then that might make sense.


Or Notes or Open Xchange or... well, or a host of many different
collaboration suites.

> If
> you're moving to Exchange, it doesn't.


Ah, so even more vendor lock-in when you use Exchange and even more money
to go to Microsoft if you want to virtualize it. Gee, where do I sign up.



--
Joe
Does this washcloth smell like chloroform?

Joe Marton Emeritus Knowledge Partner
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Anonymous_User Absent Member.
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Re: Exchange 2007 vs Groupwise 8: Price

From dealing with our MS licensing, this looks right to me. Its also
true that volume licensing will save you some money.

Marcel Cox wrote:
> Disclaimer: don't take my message as an authoritative source of
> information for Microsoft licensing. What I'm saying here may be wrong.
>
> I think you got the CAL part wrong. In general, the Microsoft licensing
> works by purchasing licenses for your servers and licenses for your
> users or devices (user or device CALs). The CALs are paid once per user
> (or per device depending what licensing model you have available for the
> product and what licvensing model you choose). A CAL license is good to
> connect to any number of servers matching the type and version of the
> CAL. So for example if you have 50 devices and you use the device CAL
> licensing for your server licenses, then you just have to purchase 50
> server CALs in total, and not 2 times 50 CALs. The same holds for the
> Exchange CALs.
> You will however need a Windows server license for each server you are
> runnign an an Exchange license for each copy of Exchange you are
> running. Note that if you are using a virtualized envionment and you are
> using then one Windows 2008 EE license is OK to run up to 4 virtual
> servers on the same physical machine.
>
> Now assuming you run the whole installation on 2 physical machines, that
> would give you the following license requirements:
>
> 2 Windows 2008 server EE licenses
> 2 Exchange server licenses
> 50 Windows 2008 server CALs
> 50 Exchange CALs
> 50 Exchange enterprise CALs
>
> Now using the list prices shown here:
> http://www.microsoft.com/windowsserver2008/en/us/pricing.aspx
> http://www.microsoft.com/exchange/howtobuy/default.mspx
>
> This would give you:
>
> 2x Windows 2008 EE : 2x$3999 = $7998
> 2x Exchange : 2x$699 = $1398 (if you need Exchange enterprise edition,
> then it becomes 2x$3999 = $7998).
> 50 Windows 2008 server CALs : 0 (25 CALs included with each server license)
> 50x Exchange CAL : 50x$67 = $3350
> 50x Exchange enterprise CAL : 50x$35 = $1750
>
> Total : $14496 (list price, with this volume, you can actually use
> volume licensing which gives you lower overall prices).
>

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buckesfeld Absent Member.
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Re: Exchange 2007 vs Groupwise 8: Price

On Tue, 09 Dec 2008 15:38:55 GMT
KittyNoLegs <kittnolegs@gmail.com> wrote:

> Upgrades (in theory) as easier.
>
> The biggest technical challenge, IMO, for Exchange is that ANY
> upgrade requires you to take a new physical server (if using physical
> servers), install the OS from scratch and install Exchange and move
> mailboxes.


Uh, the latter doesn't qualify as "easier" IMHO. Actually I
find Groupwise upgrades very easy.

U
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jmarton2 Absent Member.
Absent Member.

Re: Exchange 2007 vs Groupwise 8: Price

On Tue, 09 Dec 2008 19:05:00 +0000, Uwe Buckesfeld wrote:

>> Upgrades (in theory) as easier.
>>
>> The biggest technical challenge, IMO, for Exchange is that ANY upgrade
>> requires you to take a new physical server (if using physical servers),
>> install the OS from scratch and install Exchange and move mailboxes.

>
> Uh, the latter doesn't qualify as "easier" IMHO. Actually I find
> Groupwise upgrades very easy.


Exactly. Exchange doesn't really have the concept of upgrades, only
mirations. With GW it takes what maybe 10 min to upgrade to a new
version? I doubt you can do an Exchange migration in 10 min.




--
Joe
Does this washcloth smell like chloroform?

Joe Marton Emeritus Knowledge Partner
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Anonymous_User Absent Member.
Absent Member.

Re: Exchange 2007 vs Groupwise 8: Price

In article <wjz%k.7252$wo4.3638@kovat.provo.novell.com>,
u.buckesfeld@gmx.de says...
> On Tue, 09 Dec 2008 15:38:55 GMT
> KittyNoLegs <kittnolegs@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Upgrades (in theory) as easier.
> >
> > The biggest technical challenge, IMO, for Exchange is that ANY
> > upgrade requires you to take a new physical server (if using physical
> > servers), install the OS from scratch and install Exchange and move
> > mailboxes.

>
> Uh, the latter doesn't qualify as "easier" IMHO. Actually I
> find Groupwise upgrades very easy.
>
> U
>


I guess I meant that upgrades in Notes is easier than Exchange.
Definitely upgrades in groupwise is easier than Notes or Exchange.

Technically Exchange doesn't upgrade. The docs say there's two
upgrades:

Migration and Transition (so how they get the word "upgrade" out of
there I don't know)

Migration is like GroupWise to Exchange or Notes to Exchange.
"Transition" is Exchange 200x to Exchange 2007.

Perhaps that's the reason why over half their customer base is still on
Exchange 2003 or earlier.
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buckesfeld Absent Member.
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Re: Exchange 2007 vs Groupwise 8: Price

Now I understand 🙂
I'm not using Domino for mail, but updates are easy indeed.

U
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