cybershanks Absent Member.
Absent Member.

Re: Exchange 2007 vs Groupwise 8: Price

Peter Norris;1696543 wrote:
Patrick Farrell wrote:
> KittyNoLegs wrote:
>
>> Assuming all the licensing is correct of course. (I don't think even
>> MS understands their own licensing).

>
> I bet you can call 3 reps at 3 resellers and get conflicting info.. It's
> insane dealing with MS licensing.


Novell Licensing and their sales people isn't much better...

I just turned up at a customer site and found they had their licensing
costs doubled..

because they installed a identity vault. According to Novell... they
have two trees so should pay twice for the licenses... even though the
accounts are the same users in both trees.

Then Novell wanted to charge a license per object in the Identity Vault
which includes groups.... Novell told the customer if they did not pay
up they would have to remove it as they were using government licensing.

PS they have the full version of identity manager (i.e they licensed it,
not just the freebe copy...)

The customer has Active Directory and uses Lotus Notes, they only use
Novell for File and Print and basic ZENworks. I was surprised they paid
up.. Anyhow I will be call Novell to ensure the licensing is correct..

My experience of exchange 2003 has been great. yes we need 5 servers
2 x DC (vmware)
1 x Front end (vmware)
2 x Cluster servers

No one really has to administer the environment, it looks after itself.

We have 15 iPhones plus other windows mobiles all working no problems.

So sure Groupwise maybe good, I don't know never used it. but Exchange
works and is stable and really is not that hard to look after..

in fact the only issue I have is the fact the imap service doesn't sync
properly with the mapi service, resulting in duplicate mails.


This has not been my experience with Novell. More often than not they have been very good to deal with. I have stumped them with a question or two but they have stuck with it to find the correct answer. If you like stability, security, and less administrators you will quickly notice how superior Novell really is.. I am certified under both platforms and it is almost comical watching other Admins who are quick to badmouth Novell in the beginning, then they learn both products well, and then start badmouthing Microsoft in the end.

The enormous problem that Novell has is lack of getting their products known. CXO's do not read about all the new and innovative things in magazines like they read about with Microsoft. I have heard numerous times and fully agree that Novell couldn't market themselves out of a wet paper bag.

Another thing that has not been brought up is simply using NOWS Novell Open Workgroup Suite (Small Business Edition). It has even a more aggressive pricing structure and meets the needs of most small businesses due to the large amount of products you receive with it. Novell eDirectory, GroupWise, ZENWorks, and iPrint to say a few.

Jim
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Anonymous_User Absent Member.
Absent Member.

Re: Exchange 2007 vs Groupwise 8: Price

Hi.

You wouldn't by Exchange 2007 *today*, would you?

So your question would come out to GW8 <-> Ex2010.


If your want to benefit from all the features of Exchange 2010, you will need to up
all the client PCs to Win7 and Office 2010, Win 2008-R2 Servers + Sharepoint.

The feature list for such an environment is impressively long, almost back-breaking.



So the comparisation finally might be

OWS <-> Ex2010 + Win7 + Off2010 + Cals + Ex2010CALs + ... (Forefront, whatsoever...)




Regards, Rudi.
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Anonymous_User Absent Member.
Absent Member.

Re: Exchange 2007 vs Groupwise 8: Price

On 10/21/10 4:41 AM, Rudolf Thilo wrote:
> Hi.
>
> You wouldn't by Exchange 2007 *today*, would you?
>
> So your question would come out to GW8<-> Ex2010.
>
>
> If your want to benefit from all the features of Exchange 2010, you will need to up
> all the client PCs to Win7 and Office 2010, Win 2008-R2 Servers + Sharepoint.
>
> The feature list for such an environment is impressively long, almost back-breaking.
>
>
>
> So the comparisation finally might be
>
> OWS<-> Ex2010 + Win7 + Off2010 + Cals + Ex2010CALs + ... (Forefront, whatsoever...)
>
>
>
>
> Regards, Rudi.


I'm waiting for the day when you have to run SQL Server and Exchange
just to make Windows work. 😛

--
http://www.thecrankyitguy.com
http://www.thecrankyitforum.com
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Anonymous_User Absent Member.
Absent Member.

Re: Exchange 2007 vs Groupwise 8: Price

Hi.

>I'm waiting for the day when you have to run SQL Server and Exchange just to make
>Windows work. 😛


That 😛 goes to M$ 🙂

I honestly don't want all that stuff. But all these C.. people on top of companies
ask for the super-duper-endless-feature-list. They believe, that everything they
heard of is easy to setup, maintain, at 99,9999% uptime and no config trouble etc.
etc. and that the TCO will be reasonable while ROI will be reached within 3 months.


:((

One of my customers is fully OWS licensed. Some weeks ago: Maintenance will not be
renewed, until Novell's future looks secure (elliot and the neg's started quite a
time ago).

Now it looks like, that they will move 100% MS within the next months. Costs? Yes,
temendous, but that doesn't matter. Quality? The M$ high-gloss papers look so
promising. Can't be just a pack of lies, as everybody is using M$, isn't it?
The C.. (CEO, ...) hardly ever know anybody among their business partners relying on
Novell's products. And if, then it's propably old EOL versions.


So who cares about SQL an Exchange to become required services to run Win desktops?

Sad, really sad.


How far away is GroupWise 9? I heard an ETA of 2012. So maybe end of the year 2012,
or 2013?

Will GW9.0.0 be of better quality than GW8.0.0?

I'm working for IT since ~1995, and mainly rely on Novell's products. But customer's
don't, everybody is using M$, and Novell marketing is like it always was...


There are 2x10^9 US$ cache, that could be used for what's ever needed. But Ronny boy
peferes to spoil what's left over by doing sell-out negotiations...


Frustrated, after "beeing Novell for 15 years",


Rudi.
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Anonymous_User Absent Member.
Absent Member.

Re: Exchange 2007 vs Groupwise 8: Price

I gave up on Novell several years ago.

When your loyal IT people lose faith in you it's a sign you are doing it
wrong. Period.

At this point I don't believe their products are any better than
anything else available. Not saying they are any worse, but just don't
think they offer any technical or financial advantage.

However, I stay here because I like the community (or what's left of it).

--
http://www.thecrankyitguy.com
http://www.thecrankyitforum.com
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Anonymous_User Absent Member.
Absent Member.

Re: Exchange 2007 vs Groupwise 8: Price

I would say the Exchange build you were quoted was a little extreme for your needs. Not to say that's not the right and scalable way to do it though...

However, you could get away with Hub, Cas, and Mailbox roles all on one server if you really wanted to. Is that the right way to do it? No. But that's how you'd be doing it with GroupWise. Exchange divides the roles up for performance, availablity, and security reasons. I think if you built you GroupWise system with the overkill that the Microsoft guy was suggesting you could spend just as much.

As far as upgrades go... Novell's "upgrades" really haven't been "upgrades", have they? They've been ever so minor facelifts and genrally re-introduce German page headers randomly 🙂 I also believe the transition from GroupWise 7 to GroupWise 8 is a... what?...a migration. Right?

I also have no confidence as to how long GroupWise 8 will be an option. There's too much instablity and "fear" invovled with Novell. I used to bleed Red but they went off on a new direction and didn't seem to care about how that affected me.

My general dissatisfaction with GroupWise was with how long we suffered with 7 and it's lack of "keep up" with Exchange. Now, for some reason, all of my Novell friends think that since GroupWise 8 came out and compares well with Exchange 2007 that Novell has caught up. Bad news is... Exchange 2010 is about a year old and again is outpacing GroupWise in features.

Will you spend more on a properly built Exchange system? Probably. But I don't think your comparision is valid. Your GroupWise system would need built up a little more to really compare to the Exchange system that you were suggested. It's not an apples to apples comparision.

As for administration... I went from managing a 1000 user GroupWise 7 system to a 1000 user Exchange system and I do less with it now than I did with it then. If you need a dedicated admin for Exchange it's because you're not versitile enough to be taught new tricks 😉
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Anonymous_User Absent Member.
Absent Member.

Re: Exchange 2007 vs Groupwise 8: Price

Hi.

>When your loyal IT people lose faith in you it's a sign you are doing it wrong.


Not the IT people. The executive board. Smalltalk at meetings, exposition,
golfclub,... "Oh, you are *still* using Novell?"

>At this point I don't believe their products are any better than anything else
>available. Not saying they are any worse, but just don't think they offer any
>technical or financial advantage.


Who is any worse, MS or NOVL? 😉

The MS "package" for sure is *NOT* cheaper than the NOVL package. The quality of MS
products have improved a lot, do this disadvantage isn't the killer agument any more.

>However, I stay here because I like the community (or what's left of it).


I'm here, because *I* believe in Novell products. But I'm not the


Regards, Rudi.
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Anonymous_User Absent Member.
Absent Member.

Re: Exchange 2007 vs Groupwise 8: Price

Regards, Rudi.
Hi.

>
>I would say the Exchange build you were quoted was a little extreme for
>your needs.


Extreme? It's absolutely overkill.
Bying a big bunch of licenses doesn't mean at all, that everything will operate, as
shown in a presentation: There is a lot of config and admin work required. The users
have to be well trained to use all the features. The HW requirements are overkill as
well, you are right, and that's what I try to communicate very clearly.


>I also have no confidence as to how long GroupWise 8 will be an option.
>There's too much instablity and "fear" invovled with Novell. I used to
>bleed Red but they went off on a new direction and didn't seem to care
>about how that affected me.


Right.

>My general dissatisfaction with GroupWise was with how long we suffered
>with 7 and it's lack of "keep up" with Exchange. Now, for some reason,
>all of my Novell friends think that since GroupWise 8 came out and
>compares well with Exchange 2007 that Novell has caught up. Bad news
>is... Exchange 2010 is about a year old and again is outpacing GroupWise
>in features.


That's it!

>Will you spend more on a properly built Exchange system? Probably. But
>I don't think your comparision is valid. Your GroupWise system would
>need built up a little more to really compare to the Exchange system
>that you were suggested. It's not an apples to apples comparision.


Well, let's say, Exchange 2010 as above is an apple, and GW8 is a pear.

Then the correct coparision would be: Here is a nice apple from M$. Unfortunately
there is no apple available from NOVL, but you could take this pear?!??


>As for administration... I went from managing a 1000 user GroupWise 7
>system to a 1000 user Exchange system and I do less with it now than I
>did with it then.


Interesting. What was the change in the system storage requirements after that
migration?


Regards, Rudi.
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