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Re: Gas Executives charged with collusion

Jim Henderson wrote:
> On Wed, 22 Aug 2007 14:05:04 -0600, Kim Groneman wrote:
>
>> Jim Henderson,
>>
>>> Largely due to the lack of mass adoption, though

>> True. The initial R&D and infrastructure costs for a change like that
>> can be killer......and slow.

>
> Yep. Look at how long its taken Solar to get to where it is today - the
> materials are better, granted, but it's still pretty expensive, but it
> does tend to pay for itself in 10-15 years IIRC.
>


Have you priced solar power *lately*? Solar panels on ebay = very
affordable. If anything, the batteries is what drives up the cost. If
you do it diy(like my neighbor did)it can pay for itself in a few years.
Particularly if you switch to a electric furnace.

Ted Novak
TRA#5512
IEAS#75
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Re: Gas Executives charged with collusion

Jim Henderson,

> but it's still pretty expensive, but it
> does tend to pay for itself in 10-15 years IIRC


People should realize that solar power isn't totally clean. The
manufacturing process for the panels and batteries, along with the disposal
of old batteries isn't exactly 100% environmentally friendly.

I checked into solar power for my house...it's way expensive. I've got some
12v panels in parallel ($39.95 on sale at Harbor Freight...and they're
almost always on sale
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=41144 )to
charge a battery powered lighting system at a couple of places I have. If
you want power enough to power 120v Lights/TVs/PCs/Fridge/Freezer you're
talking a LOT of money.

--
Kim
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Re: Gas Executives charged with collusion

Kim Groneman wrote:
> Jim Henderson,
>
>> but it's still pretty expensive, but it
>> does tend to pay for itself in 10-15 years IIRC

>
> People should realize that solar power isn't totally clean. The
> manufacturing process for the panels and batteries, along with the disposal
> of old batteries isn't exactly 100% environmentally friendly.


Of course. But so is the production of gas from oil. And when get
right down to it, I doubt that anything is a 100% environmentally
friendly to produce.

>
> I checked into solar power for my house...it's way expensive. I've got some
> 12v panels in parallel ($39.95 on sale at Harbor Freight...and they're
> almost always on sale
> http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=41144 )to
> charge a battery powered lighting system at a couple of places I have. If
> you want power enough to power 120v Lights/TVs/PCs/Fridge/Freezer you're
> talking a LOT of money.
>


Tell that to my neighbor down the street. He saved many $$$$$ by doing
the whole project diy.

Ted Novak
TRA#5512
IEAS#75
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Re: Gas Executives charged with collusion

On Wed, 22 Aug 2007 20:54:39 +0000, Kim Groneman wrote:

> Jim Henderson,
>
>> but it's still pretty expensive, but it
>> does tend to pay for itself in 10-15 years IIRC

>
> People should realize that solar power isn't totally clean. The
> manufacturing process for the panels and batteries, along with the
> disposal of old batteries isn't exactly 100% environmentally friendly.


Nothing that's manufactured is "totally clean". There's always a cost
offset of some sort.

> I checked into solar power for my house...it's way expensive. I've got
> some 12v panels in parallel ($39.95 on sale at Harbor Freight...and
> they're almost always on sale
> http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=41144
> )to charge a battery powered lighting system at a couple of places I
> have. If you want power enough to power 120v
> Lights/TVs/PCs/Fridge/Freezer you're talking a LOT of money.


Yeah, I think the estimate for our house was about $20K. Like I said,
pays for itself in 10-20 years worth of electric bills, less if you
generate enough to sell back to the grid.

Jim
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Re: Gas Executives charged with collusion

On Wed, 22 Aug 2007 21:00:57 +0000, tdstr wrote:

> Tell that to my neighbor down the street. He saved many $$$$$ by doing
> the whole project diy.


We'd like to hear more - especially about how much it cost him in the end
(dollars and time).

Jim
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Re: Gas Executives charged with collusion

On Wed, 22 Aug 2007 20:20:17 +0000, tdstr wrote:

> Have you priced solar power *lately*? Solar panels on ebay = very
> affordable. If anything, the batteries is what drives up the cost. If
> you do it diy(like my neighbor did)it can pay for itself in a few years.
> Particularly if you switch to a electric furnace.


Yep, but we've not priced it as panels, but some of the new photovoltaic
shingles that are starting to come on the market. The conversion rate is
*much* better than the old panels.

Jim
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Re: Gas Executives charged with collusion

I'm shocked!!! Shocked I say!!! Big Oil is engaged in price fixing!!!

Craig wrote:
> It's a start.....
>
> http://www.mercurynews.com/breakingnews/ci_6680861

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Re: Gas Executives charged with collusion

No, I was saying that in addition to Science being Theory, there are other
issues of benefit other than the debate over climate change.

A segue, as it were.


"tdstr" <tdstr@foadspammer.com> wrote in message
news:w50zi.5175$pG6.1464@prv-forum2.provo.novell.com...
> Craig wrote:
>> And as Suzuki said, you don't argue about the heat of the fire when your
>> house is burning down. That's why consensus matters; there are always
>> people who will be contrary (and historically wrong).
>>
>> It could be that everyone has been bamboozled by this like throughout
>> history.
>>
>> However, aside from climate change:
>>
>> 1) Green is cheaper
>> 2) We KNOW pollution causes a wide variety of diseases
>> 3) We know that there are technologies out there that are superior to the
>> days of Henry Ford.
>> 4) We know that Oil will run out
>> 5) We know that Petroleum products can do so much more for us than be
>> used for fuel (plastics, medicines)
>>
>>
>> Why not embrace it and see if climate change is real accidentally?
>>

>
> huh what? Why you preachin' to me? I was replying to someone else and it
> had nothing to do with climate change, living green or anything else of
> like.
>
> Ted Novak
> TRA#5512
> IEAS#75



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Re: Gas Executives charged with collusion

Allegedly....:)


"Dan C." <dytcheung@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:2C4zi.5393$pG6.2554@prv-forum2.provo.novell.com...
> I'm shocked!!! Shocked I say!!! Big Oil is engaged in price fixing!!!
>
> Craig wrote:
>> It's a start.....
>>
>> http://www.mercurynews.com/breakingnews/ci_6680861



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Re: Gas Executives charged with collusion

Whatta ya know about that!

We've had mini-revolts as of late. Some gas stations dumping gas strictly
to make a point. (The point being that they are getting screwed too, I
reckon)


"Chris Murzda" <Chris.Murzda@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:6e0zi.5180$pG6.5157@prv-forum2.provo.novell.com...
> Here in NC, Winston-Salem area we had a gas owner who wanted to drop
> prices on his gas twenty cents below what the others were selling it at
> and he was told by his distributers that if he did they would no longer
> sell him gas. Collusion, you bet!
>
> Chris
>



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Re: Gas Executives charged with collusion

We're largely in agreement. About "cheaper" I meant that things like CF
bulbs, solar, better mileage will save you real dollars.

RE: Car technologies....the question is why is it so hard to "get there"?
If computers evolved at the rate that the Infernal Combustion engine has
we'd be unemployed!

IT is constantly changing. Mainframes, System 36s, Client-Server, Arcnet,
Dos, Windows, Vista..all in our lifetimes.

What the heck is the deal with energy?


"Kim Groneman" <kgronemanNO@SPAMnovell.com> wrote in message
news:1513154.fNqtayT1Jy@GrasshopperHerder...
> Craig,
>
>> 1) Green is cheaper

>
> Everything I've read/heard to date says it's not. In my city we pay a
> premium for green power. Solar and wind power apparently cost more to
> produce than coal or nuclear power today.
>
>> 2) We KNOW pollution causes a wide variety of diseases

>
> That it does, and is probably worth trying to reduce pollution by itself.
>
>> 3) We know that there are technologies out there that are superior to the
>> days of Henry Ford.

>
> There are and they are being worked on. Again, I think it's a matter of
> money. Hydrogen concept cars are there, but the price is too steep to be
> of much use right now. That's not to say that with scientists and
> engineers working on it, it can't be cost effective in the future. I have
> a Prius and paid more for it than I would have a standard gas engine car.
> It's a good step forward, but it still uses gasoline so not a perfect
> answer.
>
>> 4) We know that Oil will run out

>
> Not for a long time. There are still plenty of oil fields out there that
> just need the technology to be able to tap into. There's also oil-shale
> and oil-sands that can be a source of energy, but, again are too cost
> ineffective right now. You are right however, that at some time in the
> future, it will run out so we had better start planning for our children
> and/or our grandchildren's future. I'm glad our parents and grandparents
> did all this wonderful stuff for us.
>
>> 5) We know that Petroleum products can do so much more for us than be
>> used
>> for fuel (plastics, medicines)

>
> I don't know about that. I see what you are saying, but take away the
> transportation that petroleum provides right now and some of the other
> products that can be produced become worthless. I wouldn't discount the
> "value" of the todays relatively cheap oil based transportation.
>
>> Why not embrace it and see if climate change is real accidentally?

>
> I think that's a great idea. It's hard for individuals to participate in
> a
> manner that makes much difference (but why not do our part?). Groups,
> business, and governments have to buy into it. In the meantime, I'll
> drive
> a Prius and use fluorescent bulbs.
>
> --
> Kim



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Re: Gas Executives charged with collusion

Jim Henderson wrote:
> On Wed, 22 Aug 2007 20:20:17 +0000, tdstr wrote:
>
>> Have you priced solar power *lately*? Solar panels on ebay = very
>> affordable. If anything, the batteries is what drives up the cost. If
>> you do it diy(like my neighbor did)it can pay for itself in a few years.
>> Particularly if you switch to a electric furnace.

>
> Yep, but we've not priced it as panels, but some of the new photovoltaic
> shingles that are starting to come on the market. The conversion rate is
> *much* better than the old panels.
>


Well those shingles are new and yes, are rather expensive. But panels
are still very doable and inexpensive.

Ted Novak
TRA#5512
IEAS#75
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Re: Gas Executives charged with collusion

On Thu, 23 Aug 2007 01:35:32 +0000, Ted Novak wrote:

> Well those shingles are new and yes, are rather expensive. But panels
> are still very doable and inexpensive.


Yes, but not as efficient - and for us, our house is possibly a historic
landmark (or would qualify for the register, as it's one of the first
built in SLC by Greek immigrants), so there's a consideration there as
well for preserving the original look.

Jim
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Re: Gas Executives charged with collusion

On Thu, 23 Aug 2007 00:58:10 +0000, Craig wrote:

> What the heck is the deal with energy?


Look at what executives in oil companies get paid, and you'll have your
answer.

Jim
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Re: Gas Executives charged with collusion

Jim Henderson wrote:
> On Thu, 23 Aug 2007 01:35:32 +0000, Ted Novak wrote:
>
>> Well those shingles are new and yes, are rather expensive. But panels
>> are still very doable and inexpensive.

>
> Yes, but not as efficient - and for us, our house is possibly a historic
> landmark (or would qualify for the register, as it's one of the first
> built in SLC by Greek immigrants), so there's a consideration there as
> well for preserving the original look.
>


But they are efficient enough to power a house. My neighbor is proof of
that.

And you don't stick the panels on the house. You put them on the garage
and that is where you also put the batteries and converters.

Jim, the whole point what I've been trying to make here is that it IS
possible, people ARE doing it(diy style that is) and it IS paying for
itself in a relative short time.

Note: I'm not saying *you* have to do this, just that people ARE doing
it and it IS working for them.

Think about this: last winter how much was your monthly gas furnace
bill? Imagine if you *didn't* have that monthly bill. I don't know
about you but my last winter gas bill was just beyond sick 😞

Ted Novak
TRA#5512
IEAS#75
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