Anonymous_User Absent Member.
Absent Member.

Re: State of IT - your thoughts...

> Oh cool...maybe I can just be a farmer in the meantime. 🙂

Enjoy!
0 Likes
Anonymous_User Absent Member.
Absent Member.

Re: State of IT - your thoughts...

Craig;1566743 wrote:
In fairness to all involved: As Mary said, there are some extra benefits
that one gets from college. I see plenty of IT guys what can't even spell
no how, and even if'n they could they wood use pore gramer.

You seem to write cogently and have the ability to express yourself. That
is definitely a good thing! Might I suggest that if you think you stand to
gain little from U of P, then why not go to a school where your education
gets broadened more...like with History, English, Language?

As an employer myself, I look for much more than whether or not a guy has
done ring & string, and my leanings for management material would be someone
with a real education.

I, too, am sorry if that offends.


"arsmitty86" <arsmitty86@no-mx.forums.novell.com> wrote in message
news:arsmitty86.3a331c@no-mx.forums.novell.com...
>
> Mary Matthews;1566638 Wrote:
>> There's so much more learning that goes on in college besides the book
>> learning.
>>
>> You may have the technical skills to do you job, but how can you prove
>> you
>> understand the business processes, what other departments go through
>> (ever
>> done any accounting work? it's boring, but necessary), and that you
>> can
>> write to a leave above you. Do you understand CBAs and ROIs?
>>
>> The days of being a good tech and having a wide open budget has been
>> long
>> gone for years. Now it has to be in business terms, not geek terms.
>>
>> UoP is an easy B.S., my MBA classes are cake walk, but then I had a
>> hard BS
>> program and worked 2-3 jobs while getting it, so I tend to expect a
>> lot.
>> 🙂
>>
>> My sister finished up there though and she's got a job as a DBA even
>> though
>> most of California looks down on UoP degrees (we all got spoiled by the
>> Cal
>> State system).
>>
>> And there are some benies to the UoP program that I found useful.
>> Learning
>> to work in a team with people who either don't know how to work or
>> don't
>> want to work taught me a lot about negotiations and patience.
>>
>> You're right your age will go against you, not because of what they
>> think
>> of your resume, but more because you haven't done college and they
>> don't
>> know if they can trust you to be there Monday morning at 8am when they
>> need
>> you. (This is true for college grads with little to no work experience
>> as
>> well).
>>
>> Your best bet is to work on the "human" networking...go to local user
>> groups, get to know the other techs in the area and ask about new job
>> opps
>> and if they'll carry your resume in for you. Works for me! But then I
>> am
>> old.

>
> That's exactly the kind of analysis I have come to expect from people
> with degrees and exactly why I don't want to even bother getting one...
> I've run a tech bench and a wide range of contracts with different
> people... I didn't say that I didn't have a good job . I finally
> found someone that came up the hard way and even though they have their
> degree now, they understand its possible to gain knowledge other ways.
> I have a pretty good handle on cost/benefit analysis and Return on
> Investment... I know how to figure TCO and have a good handle on
> dealing with the larger picture... I also know our place and understand
> that the IT department is largely dismissed as overhead when it isn't
> that simple... In my experience it's the people running the show
> responsible for the problems because they understand things like CBA
> but without knowing the technical end of things make very poor
> decisions seeing no benefit in something they'll wish they bought in 5
> years when their network goes to pot. The system is broken and thats
> all there is to it... When I get my degree it will go where it
> belongs... In a drawer. I'm getting it because society thinks I
> should. Other than that it's worthless in my mind. I've been watching
> my poor wife suffer through highschool part two since we've been married
> and the things shes been "learning" (I use that term loosley as
> professors could care less if you learn. They don't want you to think
> they want you to regurgitate) are about as "valuable" as a bucket full
> of red clay. I told you I was bitter. Sorry If I came off to harsh,
> I'm really not a bad person, thats just a sore spot for me.
>
>
> --
> In God We Trust, All others we virus scan!
> A+, Network+, NCA, CLDA, NAI
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> arsmitty86's Profile: NOVELL FORUMS - View Profile: arsmitty86
> View this thread: State of IT - your thoughts... - NOVELL FORUMS
>


Not at all. Thank you for the compliments as well. I know I come off completely anti-education but I'm not... I'm anti-elitist. I'll kill my kids if they don't go to school. I don't want them to struggle like I had to.
0 Likes
Anonymous_User Absent Member.
Absent Member.

Re: State of IT - your thoughts...

On Tue, 27 May 2008 19:36:02 +0000, arsmitty86 wrote:

> See above. Exactly why I'm ashamed to even go back.. I'm selling out to
> a broken system for the sake of financial gain...


I'm proof that you don't have to. I ran out of money before finishing my
CS degree (started in aeronautical engineering) and went to work. It
took 15 years - and I felt very similarly to the way you do now, that
people look at your age and say "how could you possibly have that kind of
experience at your age?". I was a support forum SysOp when I was 23
years old (back in 1994) and had a book credit to my name shortly after
that.

I didn't finish college, never pursued technical certifications (I
figured "I'm one of 23 SysOps for Novell - why be 1 of 10,000 when I'm 1
of 23?). I got my first technical certification after I started teaching
eDirectory at the ATT level.

Now I am in management - program management - in Novell's training
organization (in fact, I manage the CNI and NAI programs, and I note
you're one of my NAIs).

For those of us like you and I, we have to prove ourselves over and over
and over again. The road to a good paying job is a long one, and the
road into management is fraught with having to learn to play the game of
corporate politics and (I think) to retain your integrity while doing
it. That is a very difficult road to follow.

But I'm proof that it can be done. But it doesn't happen in a week. It
took me from 1993 until 2005 to become ready to move into management, and
there are days where I do feel I'm at a disadvantage because I've had to
learn it all through experience. But for me, that's the best way to
learn.

The single most important thing IMHO in working in IT is to never, ever
be afraid to say you don't know something. It's not possible to know it
all. Even with my background in eDirectory (which is extensive), I still
find things every time I look at it that I didn't know before. The
important thing to remember about saying "I don't know" is to know how to
find out. That is a skill that it seems not many have these days, and
that skill can take you a long way.

I used to do technical interviews on occasion (and I guess technically
now as the CNI program manager, I do that in the form of IPEs quite
regularly - hadn't really thought of it that way before) - I was taught
to interview by an ex-lawyer. If you want to learn how to evaluate
people, that's probably one of the best ways to do so. I gave my first
technical interview as the senior person in a Software, Etc. store (back
when it used to actually be about software and books rather than - as my
former store manager and I now call it - "Nintendo, Etc.") when I was
about 17 years old; there was no assistant manager and the manager got
let go. I learned a lot from Cam (who was another store manager brought
in to run things until I showed up) that day.

While I don't talk about it much here, I do keep a blog on IT
certification and training that does go into a lot of this sort of thing
- not just the cert/training side of things, but about making a career in
IT. Feel free to have a read and comment (I don't update it very often,
maybe once every couple of months on average) at http://
itcat.wordpress.com. It's all based on my own experiences in the
industry and in working in training & certification now, and I try to
just tell it like I see it.

Jim
--
Jim Henderson, CNA6, CDE, CNI, LPIC-1
Novell Training Services
0 Likes
naomi371 Absent Member.
Absent Member.

Re: State of IT - your thoughts...

Heeeey, I hear you got a new tractor?


Mary Matthews wrote:
> Oh cool...maybe I can just be a farmer in the meantime. 🙂
>
>>>> On 5/27/2008 at 12:38 PM, in message

> <UNW_j.1834$6C2.212@kovat.provo.novell.com>, G of
> Borg<G@collectiveAB1.com> wrote:
>>> Guess it's time for me to return to the programming world then. 🙂

>> Ah, but here's the rub...India/China/Brazil are full of programmers
>> that
>> will do it for half or two thirds of what you would. An H1B will do it
>> for
>> half as much also. Until enough people exit the field salaries will
>> stay
>> lower and someone is going to inherit a horrible mess when these things
>> fall into disrepair. That'll be the next big salary job, fixing and
>> rehabbing decrepit networks.

0 Likes
Anonymous_User Absent Member.
Absent Member.

Re: State of IT - your thoughts...

Jim Henderson;1566780 wrote:
On Tue, 27 May 2008 19:36:02 +0000, arsmitty86 wrote:

> See above. Exactly why I'm ashamed to even go back.. I'm selling out to
> a broken system for the sake of financial gain...


I'm proof that you don't have to. I ran out of money before finishing my
CS degree (started in aeronautical engineering) and went to work. It
took 15 years - and I felt very similarly to the way you do now, that
people look at your age and say "how could you possibly have that kind of
experience at your age?". I was a support forum SysOp when I was 23
years old (back in 1994) and had a book credit to my name shortly after
that.

I didn't finish college, never pursued technical certifications (I
figured "I'm one of 23 SysOps for Novell - why be 1 of 10,000 when I'm 1
of 23?). I got my first technical certification after I started teaching
eDirectory at the ATT level.

Now I am in management - program management - in Novell's training
organization (in fact, I manage the CNI and NAI programs, and I note
you're one of my NAIs).

For those of us like you and I, we have to prove ourselves over and over
and over again. The road to a good paying job is a long one, and the
road into management is fraught with having to learn to play the game of
corporate politics and (I think) to retain your integrity while doing
it. That is a very difficult road to follow.

But I'm proof that it can be done. But it doesn't happen in a week. It
took me from 1993 until 2005 to become ready to move into management, and
there are days where I do feel I'm at a disadvantage because I've had to
learn it all through experience. But for me, that's the best way to
learn.

The single most important thing IMHO in working in IT is to never, ever
be afraid to say you don't know something. It's not possible to know it
all. Even with my background in eDirectory (which is extensive), I still
find things every time I look at it that I didn't know before. The
important thing to remember about saying "I don't know" is to know how to
find out. That is a skill that it seems not many have these days, and
that skill can take you a long way.

I used to do technical interviews on occasion (and I guess technically
now as the CNI program manager, I do that in the form of IPEs quite
regularly - hadn't really thought of it that way before) - I was taught
to interview by an ex-lawyer. If you want to learn how to evaluate
people, that's probably one of the best ways to do so. I gave my first
technical interview as the senior person in a Software, Etc. store (back
when it used to actually be about software and books rather than - as my
former store manager and I now call it - "Nintendo, Etc.") when I was
about 17 years old; there was no assistant manager and the manager got
let go. I learned a lot from Cam (who was another store manager brought
in to run things until I showed up) that day.

While I don't talk about it much here, I do keep a blog on IT
certification and training that does go into a lot of this sort of thing
- not just the cert/training side of things, but about making a career in
IT. Feel free to have a read and comment (I don't update it very often,
maybe once every couple of months on average) at http://
itcat.wordpress.com. It's all based on my own experiences in the
industry and in working in training & certification now, and I try to
just tell it like I see it.

Jim
--
Jim Henderson, CNA6, CDE, CNI, LPIC-1
Novell Training Services


🙂 You've just made my day.
0 Likes
Anonymous_User Absent Member.
Absent Member.

Re: State of IT - your thoughts...

Try being a woman in IT, one who entered it in the early 80's and THEN
let's talk about discrimination and unethical behavior. I was very glad my
grandfather taught me to swear like a sailor before I entered the work
force. 🙂

>>> On 5/27/2008 at 4:01 PM, in message

<qMZ_j.1915$6C2.952@kovat.provo.novell.com>, Jim
Henderson<Jim.Henderson@SysOps.NSC> wrote:
> On Tue, 27 May 2008 19:36:02 +0000, arsmitty86 wrote:
>
>> See above. Exactly why I'm ashamed to even go back.. I'm selling out

> to
>> a broken system for the sake of financial gain...

>
> I'm proof that you don't have to. I ran out of money before finishing
> my
> CS degree (started in aeronautical engineering) and went to work. It
> took 15 years - and I felt very similarly to the way you do now, that
> people look at your age and say "how could you possibly have that kind
> of
> experience at your age?". I was a support forum SysOp when I was 23
> years old (back in 1994) and had a book credit to my name shortly after
>
> that.
>
> I didn't finish college, never pursued technical certifications (I
> figured "I'm one of 23 SysOps for Novell - why be 1 of 10,000 when I'm 1


>
> of 23?). I got my first technical certification after I started
> teaching
> eDirectory at the ATT level.
>
> Now I am in management - program management - in Novell's training
> organization (in fact, I manage the CNI and NAI programs, and I note
> you're one of my NAIs).
>
> For those of us like you and I, we have to prove ourselves over and
> over
> and over again. The road to a good paying job is a long one, and the
> road into management is fraught with having to learn to play the game
> of
> corporate politics and (I think) to retain your integrity while doing
> it. That is a very difficult road to follow.
>
> But I'm proof that it can be done. But it doesn't happen in a week.
> It
> took me from 1993 until 2005 to become ready to move into management,
> and
> there are days where I do feel I'm at a disadvantage because I've had
> to
> learn it all through experience. But for me, that's the best way to
> learn.
>
> The single most important thing IMHO in working in IT is to never, ever
>
> be afraid to say you don't know something. It's not possible to know
> it
> all. Even with my background in eDirectory (which is extensive), I
> still
> find things every time I look at it that I didn't know before. The
> important thing to remember about saying "I don't know" is to know how
> to
> find out. That is a skill that it seems not many have these days, and
> that skill can take you a long way.
>
> I used to do technical interviews on occasion (and I guess technically
> now as the CNI program manager, I do that in the form of IPEs quite
> regularly - hadn't really thought of it that way before) - I was taught
> to interview by an ex-lawyer. If you want to learn how to evaluate
> people, that's probably one of the best ways to do so. I gave my first
>
> technical interview as the senior person in a Software, Etc. store
> (back
> when it used to actually be about software and books rather than - as my


>
> former store manager and I now call it - "Nintendo, Etc.") when I was
> about 17 years old; there was no assistant manager and the manager got
> let go. I learned a lot from Cam (who was another store manager
> brought
> in to run things until I showed up) that day.
>
> While I don't talk about it much here, I do keep a blog on IT
> certification and training that does go into a lot of this sort of
> thing
> - not just the cert/training side of things, but about making a career
> in
> IT. Feel free to have a read and comment (I don't update it very
> often,
> maybe once every couple of months on average) at http://
> itcat.wordpress.com. It's all based on my own experiences in the
> industry and in working in training & certification now, and I try to
> just tell it like I see it.
>
> Jim

0 Likes
Anonymous_User Absent Member.
Absent Member.

Re: State of IT - your thoughts...

On Tue, 27 May 2008 20:35:26 +0000, Mary Matthews wrote:

> Try being a woman in IT, one who entered it in the early 80's and THEN
> let's talk about discrimination and unethical behavior.


I'd have a hard time trying that. 😉

But I've observed what you're talking about.

Jim
--
Jim Henderson, CNA6, CDE, CNI, LPIC-1
Novell Training Services
0 Likes
Anonymous_User Absent Member.
Absent Member.

Re: State of IT - your thoughts...

On Tue, 27 May 2008 20:36:01 +0000, arsmitty86 wrote:

> You've just made my day.


Always glad to help out. 🙂

Jim
--
Jim Henderson, CNA6, CDE, CNI, LPIC-1
Novell Training Services
0 Likes
Anonymous_User Absent Member.
Absent Member.

Re: State of IT - your thoughts...

Well I do, but not everyone does...

Personal Preference I suppose
0 Likes
Anonymous_User Absent Member.
Absent Member.

Re: State of IT - your thoughts...

I hear you there!

I got a traineeship straight out of school and into IT doing all the hands on stuff straight away, as well as managing the network and technology involved, and what did I hear when I went for my first interview once I had finished it? Oh sorry you're too young, or, we would like a graduate to take up this position. People would look at my resume and say, oh OK, you finished highschool a couple of years ago and now you have these 2 pieces of paper that say you can manage networks...but no university? We would like to hire someone with no experience but that piece of paper instead of your two hands on competency based certs...

I dont see logic in that
0 Likes
Anonymous_User Absent Member.
Absent Member.

Re: State of IT - your thoughts...

arsmitty86;1566763 wrote:
Not at all. Thank you for the compliments as well. I know I come off completely anti-education but I'm not... I'm anti-elitist. I'll kill my kids if they don't go to school. I don't want them to struggle like I had to.


Oh btw, thanks to everyone for not calling out my gramar/spelling errors.
0 Likes
Anonymous_User Absent Member.
Absent Member.

Re: State of IT - your thoughts...

Hey...so why not set the example...go back to learn for learning's sake?


"arsmitty86" <arsmitty86@no-mx.forums.novell.com> wrote in message
news:arsmitty86.3a3don@no-mx.forums.novell.com...
>
> arsmitty86;1566763 Wrote:
>> Not at all. Thank you for the compliments as well. I know I come off
>> completely anti-education but I'm not... I'm anti-elitist. I'll kill
>> my kids if they don't go to school. I don't want them to struggle like
>> I had to.

>
> Oh btw, thanks to everyone for not calling out my gramar/spelling
> errors.
>
>
> --
> In God We Trust, All others we virus scan!
> A+, Network+, NCA, CLDA, NAI
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> arsmitty86's Profile: http://forums.novell.com/member.php?userid=5958
> View this thread: http://forums.novell.com/showthread.php?t=329974
>



0 Likes
The opinions expressed above are the personal opinions of the authors, not of Micro Focus. By using this site, you accept the Terms of Use and Rules of Participation. Certain versions of content ("Material") accessible here may contain branding from Hewlett-Packard Company (now HP Inc.) and Hewlett Packard Enterprise Company. As of September 1, 2017, the Material is now offered by Micro Focus, a separately owned and operated company. Any reference to the HP and Hewlett Packard Enterprise/HPE marks is historical in nature, and the HP and Hewlett Packard Enterprise/HPE marks are the property of their respective owners.